[Kevin] (0:03 - 0:30)
Welcome to our inaugural episode. We're so happy you joined us. I'm Kevin Harries, a voice actor who's trying to live past the ripe old age of 50.

So, I'm trying to adjust my eating habits. And what habits they are. Next to me, well, at least virtually next to me, I'm joined by my very best friend, who also happens to be a certified nutritionist, Michelle Pierce-Hamilton.

Say hello, Michelle.

[Michelle] (0:31 - 0:33)
Hey, everybody. Hey, Kev.

[Kevin] (0:34 - 0:35)
Hey, Michelle. How's it going?

[Michelle] (0:36 - 0:39)
You know, not too bad. Living my best life over here.

[Kevin] (0:40 - 0:49)
Excellent. Excellent. So, Michelle and I have been friends, I think, forever.

I mean, a really, really, really long time.

[Michelle] (0:49 - 0:51)
Really, really, really, really long time.

[Kevin] (0:52 - 0:54)
Did I miss a few reallys?

[Michelle] (0:54 - 0:54)
I'm sorry.

[Kevin] (0:54 - 1:06)
I'm sorry. You're absolutely right. Really, really, really, really, really long time.

So, we hope that this podcast is not only educational, but fun. Because we're really fun people.

[Michelle] (1:07 - 1:10)
We're so fun. I think we're the funnest people I know.

[Kevin] (1:11 - 1:28)
We are, absolutely. Funnest people I know, because I don't know anyone fun. While we might butt horns on a few topics, you know, that's what friendship is really all about, isn't it?

Because, you know, so long as there's understanding, love, and respect for the other person, it's all good.

[Michelle] (1:29 - 1:29)
Exactly.

[Kevin] (1:30 - 2:43)
So, what are we here for? So, Michelle and I have been talking a lot in recent years about how I could, and should, turn my eating around. But, to be honest, I just find it so complicated.

And I thought, surely, don't call me Shirley, I'm not the only person that doesn't understand food, and digestion, and nutrition, and all that. I can't be that unique. Because it ends up that nutrition really is surprisingly complicated.

A lot goes into what ends up on our plates, and eventually in our stomachs. And a surprising amount of that doesn't even have anything to do with nutrition. So, we're going to be covering a lot of this in future episodes, obviously.

But before we delve into all that, we'd like to set out a few ground rules for this podcast. So, let's start out with the rules. Me?

I'm just a dumb student. I'm the noob when it comes to nutrition. So, Michelle, I think this is where you should probably jump in, and provide a little background about yourself, and a bit of clarity about the things that you're going to teach us all about.

[Michelle] (2:44 - 4:18)
Sure. I'm so incredibly passionate about nutrition. I think you know that.

And anything to do with supporting our health and longevity. And I come by this as a latecomer, myself. As you know, my former career, or still present career on the side, is a project management professional.

But based on a series of events in my own life, I went on a mission to improve my health, and change the trajectory that I was on, which was not a good one. And I lost some people close to me, which really shook my world to its core. So, I studied nutrition, and in night school, became a registered holistic nutritionist.

I've also gone on to do study at Cornell, in the T. Colin Campbell Institute. And I attend for fun, because this is fun for me.

I attend at least 100 hours or more of ongoing education every single year. Because, you're right, it's surprisingly complicated. And the science is changing all the time.

And what we thought was true 10 years ago, even one year ago in some cases, you know, the evidence may change. So, we have to shift with it. But there are a certain number of basic truths that are always true about what supports our health and longevity.

And we're probably going to focus mainly on that in this podcast, and try to make this simple for everybody.

[Kevin] (4:19 - 5:10)
Good, because I need simple. I can't go too complicated, because it feels like it is incredibly complicated when you delve into it. Because, you know, I haven't gone deep, but I've read a little bit here and there.

And it seems, you know, the old stereotype of, you know, when we were growing up, eggs were amazing. For example, just to take one example. And then, like in the 80s, eggs suddenly became evil.

And then in the 90s, eggs were great again. And then in 2000, eggs were evil again. And now, I don't even know if eggs are good for you or not.

And it seems that so many foods go through these cycles of, oh, it's the newest superfood. And then five years later, oh, well, it's actually going to kill you if you eat too much of this. And that's on so many layers.

It does feel very complicated.

[Michelle] (5:11 - 5:29)
You know what? Industry has done that. It's really like food is still food.

The healthiest things for you don't scream their health benefits in the grocery store. They just sit there silently in the produce section. Well, it should be simple.

They don't have a label. They don't have a lobby group. There's no broccoli lobby, you know.

[Kevin] (5:32 - 6:21)
Justice for zucchini. Fairness for peas. Exactly.

But that's the thing. You'd think that, like, it's just a fact of what, you know, what you put in your mouth, what you eat is, you know, it's either good or bad. And that's where I get confused because it seems that that's anything but the case.

That there's not just, like, a right or wrong, you know, this is good, this is bad, this is good, this is bad. It's, you know, well, this can be good in certain circumstances, maybe, but only if you do this and that and the other. And then I think you touched on it before, but it's also a matter of who do you believe?

Because there's also so many opinions slash facts.

[Michelle] (6:21 - 7:04)
Right. And you know what? Even what I was taught in nutrition school is not the same as what are the truths today.

And it's because, you know, I hate to say it, but industry and government have so much to do with why this is so confusing. And you and I used to talk about this when we used to work together years ago. If you want to know why something is the way that it is, follow the money.

And sadly, that's true. And we aren't even aware of it anymore, how much we're being manipulated by all of the messaging around us. And what is the expression that, you know, history is written by the victors, right?

Right.

[Kevin] (7:04 - 7:06)
The victors in the zucchini wars.

[Michelle] (7:08 - 8:22)
So so let's talk about this for a second. Why? Why is it so complicated?

Why has it become so complicated? And it's it's a product of modern society. So I think, you know, let's let's go back to, first of all, why it shouldn't be complicated.

Then we'll get to why it's complicated. So think of us. We're human beings, right?

We have a certain anatomy, anatomy and physiology. We are made a certain way. And this is like millions and millions and millions of years of evolution.

Right. So when people say, oh, you know, we've adapted. Well, you know, that's not in our lifetime.

Not that we haven't adapted enough in the last 50 years or 100 years for it to make that much of a difference. Evolution takes a little bit longer than that. So there are certain truths about what our anatomy and our physiology was designed for and how how we're attracted to nutrient density and how we assimilate nutrients.

So if we kind of just go back there, we can really simplify it because we were designed as a human being to seek the most nutrient density for the least amount of effort. We are innately very lazy.

[Kevin] (8:23 - 8:24)
I can vouch for that.

[Michelle] (8:25 - 8:28)
I think anybody that has binge watched Netflix during the pandemic.

[Kevin] (8:28 - 8:29)
All of us.

[Michelle] (8:31 - 10:15)
Can understand that, you know, we're very, very lazy. You know, we were in a prehistoric times, if you will. You know, our safety and our comfort was not so, you know, taken for, you know, part of our experience as it as it is now.

We had to be a lot more careful about where we sought our nutritional intake and how we kept ourselves from being, you know, killed by a saber tooth tiger or something. So so the the way that nature works, we are so symbiotic with the earth. And that's one of the things I love so much.

The more that I learn about food, the more I realize how, you know, we were designed to be part of this planet. We were designed to commune with with what is natural to our environment. And and it depends on us and we depend upon them.

And it's a really beautiful thing. But so, you know, the brightly colored berries and, you know, bright greens, those are brightly colored things that are in our natural environment are the things that are traditionally the most nutrient dense. So we would they were also the easiest to reach for.

So we would reach for those. And that's how humans knew what they could eat. And yes, occasionally we would, you know, eat some animal food.

But we didn't we are not physically designed to chase down something the size of those prehistoric animals and tackle them and and and, you know, slaughter them and eat them like tools came much later.

[Kevin] (10:15 - 11:34)
Well, there has if I can just interrupt for a second. There has been a lot of discussion. And again, this is a place where I get confused because this is a very fundamental question.

It seems there's discussion and debate about whether humans are fundamentally. And I'm going to use very modern terms here and and again, very new terms. But, you know, whether we're fundamentally like hunter gatherers, meaning mostly what I would call vegetarian, because that's sort of where we started from.

Or if we're fundamentally carnivores like meat eaters, because that's high density protein and blah, blah. And we were hunting animals long before we were settling down into settlements because that's where farming came in. And there's been a lot of discussion about physiology and our teeth and our jaws.

And and even I even heard absolutely about running and how, yeah, we're not made to chase down these animals. But apparently we are made to run long distances so we can exhaust our prey, apparently. But that's where I have trouble.

Like at this fundamental level, I don't even know what to believe, to be honest. So, you know what?

[Michelle] (11:35 - 13:36)
We are going to dive into that. I think that's an excellent podcast topic, actually, because that's a whole topic unto itself. But let me let me let me give you the long and the short of it.

Our digestive tract and our our metabolism is really aligned with that of an herbivore. OK, we are carbohydrate burning organisms by nature. Our mitochondria, which which, you know, do you remember when you used to draw like a cell when you were in science class and you would you would draw like the one little mitochondria?

We don't just have one mitochondria in our cell. We have like we have like like dozens, maybe hundreds of them. So we require a lot of carbohydrate to for our for ourselves.

And it is the preferred fuel of our brains as well. But even our digestive tract is really digestive tract of an herbivore, not of a carnivore. So not to say that we can't tolerate, you know, small amounts of animal protein and tolerate it well.

And that became an evolutionary necessity, particularly in certain parts of the world. But it's not our basic makeup. And I think that is kind of a foundation.

So we will dive into all of that in much more depth in another episode. But what what we both touched on, which is I think is a salient point for an intro, is that, you know, we we were not wired to initially find our nutrition that way. Like our nutrition came from what was easiest to reach for, which was and nature made that easy for us by making them brightly colored, brightly scented, etc.

So that we'd be we'd be attracted to those things before we knew anything. And but nowadays, 2023, the most brightly colored, easy to reach for foods are not actually food.

[Kevin] (13:36 - 13:43)
They're in Gatorade, bright blue drinks and packaging. Yeah.

[Michelle] (13:44 - 13:58)
Oh, see, there's another podcast. I have a Gatorade story for you. Oh, my goodness.

Are we allowed to talk about brands on here? I don't really want to. I don't really want to mention brands.

The brightly colored stuff that sports drink that shall be remain unnamed.

[Kevin] (13:58 - 14:00)
That was just named. We can bleep it out later.

[Michelle] (14:00 - 14:51)
We can bleep it out later. So, you know, and this and this is the essence of it. And this is why it becomes so hard for people.

Companies know this and they actually pay scientists on staff and they know neuroscience. They know how our brains work. They know how to trigger those dopamine receptors.

And they actually design foods in order for it to light our brains, our pleasure center. And they know what ingredients to put in there to do it. And they know how to create the packaging so that it's going to pop out at you.

And they know how to put it on the end of the aisle in the grocery store. And they pay more for those spots in the grocery stores. You know, do you think it's an accident that all of the most yummiest treat things are right at the checkout at the grocery store?

[Kevin] (14:52 - 15:57)
Of course not. And it's always at eye level of kids. But what annoys me most, I think, about this.

And I totally hear what you say. Is when they do this neuroscience and all that on what should be nutritious foods. Because I can't count the number of times that in the middle of winter.

Admittedly, I know I shouldn't be buying them. But you see these beautiful, bright red, luscious looking strawberries. Bright, bright red.

And then you cut into them. And they're pure white and hard as a rock and flavorless. And I know that they have artificially made just the very outer layer bright red.

As you say, to appeal to that, you know, inner, you know, lazy person. Basically, you're saying humans are fundamentally lazy. This is the theme I'm getting.

And we see that bright red strawberry in the middle of winter. And it's like, oh, that'll be good. When actually it's, you know, rubbish.

And, you know, basically has the same flavor as our beloved zucchinis, you know.

[Michelle] (15:58 - 16:20)
Well, that's another great episode. It's like to talk about seasonality of foods. Because when you and I were growing up, you couldn't get strawberries in the winter.

Of course not. You had to wait for strawberry season. Which, oh my gosh, I can't wait for peach season right now.

Speaking of that, I'm like dreaming about peaches. And that song, moving to the country, going to eat a lot of peaches.

[Kevin] (16:21 - 16:34)
Yeah, that's in my head now. I just bought a bunch of strawberries and rhubarb yesterday at a farmer's market. And I was digging it.

Anyways, going way off topic.

[Michelle] (16:34 - 19:58)
I think a great way for us to kind of characterize what we've been talking about. You know, I love this quote from Michael Pollan. You know, eat real food, not too much.

Mostly plants. That's really what it comes down to. And that's what the scientific literature supports.

Not to say that people can't have, you know, small amounts or what I would call reasonable amounts of animal protein in their diet. And still be very healthy and live, you know, well into their 80s, 90s and beyond. But our society is not aligned with what's actually the right amounts and reasonable.

And I guess, you know, we'd have to define reasonable, which we will do over the course of this podcast as well. But the closer we get to nature, the closer we get to real food, then the closer we get to optimal health for humans. And we certainly that certainly includes staying away as much as possible from things that are packaged and processed.

And I think everybody knows that. I don't think that's a surprise to anybody. And the other problem that we'll touch on, like we said, follow the money.

Right. And this impacts the cost of the register, by the way. So our government subsidizes certain industries in order to, you know, boost their production.

And then it's also incumbent upon those agencies to make sure that in let's take Canadians, for example, that Canadians are consuming a majority of those foods or more of them in their diet so that they can get bang for the buck for those subsidies. Well, those subsidy systems were set up at a time when dietary recommendations were different than we now know them to be today. But that structure is so it's such a paradigm and it distorts like the cost of the register.

So, for example, you know, things like meat, dairy and eggs. If we actually paid at the register what it costs, like the real total cost of producing like of, you know, menu, producing those products and turning them into foods, they wouldn't be. We wouldn't have a ninety nine cent value menu or a dollar ninety nine value, whatever it is, whatever it is now.

Right. You wouldn't be able if those would not be the cheapest foods. And subsequently you go into those restaurants where they have that dollar ninety nine menu and like a salad costs eight dollars.

And then people go, well, I can't afford to eat healthy, like even enough, even in a in a convenience restaurant. So it's completely distorted. If we paid at the register the total cost of production for eating a healthy, nutrient dense, you know, leafy green salad versus a hamburger, the hamburger would be far more expensive.

But that's that's not what happens. So Canadians aren't. It's so confusing because Canadians are distorted by the price of the register.

They're confused by messaging from industry. But, you know, the good news is our food guide and Canada is a leader on the stage. And we're going to talk about that, I know, in a future episode as well.

So there's so many fun things for us to dive into. Yeah, I'm already wound up.

[Kevin] (19:58 - 21:10)
I can tell. I can tell. It's funny because I think, you know, when you're talking about paying at the register, what it's what it's worth.

I'm seeing a little tiny bit of this and things like coffee and chocolate, where now there's a lot of talk about fair trade coffee because we've had, you know, ninety nine cent coffee for decades and decades. And that's been having a detrimental effect on the environment because apparently coffee plantations are very, you know, clear cutting required and, you know, no shade and blah, blah, blah. And then also from the matter of, you know, the farmers who work this are vastly underpaid for the amount of work they do.

And there's, you know, and so now we're starting to see coffee starting to be a little bit more the price of coffee at the cash register being more reflective of the actual effort and environmental costs that coffee plants and coffee farming have on the planet. But it sounds like there's basically this needs to happen in every single industry or every single food type.

[Michelle] (21:10 - 22:27)
It's so important, you know, what as as you know, and our listeners will come to learn. I have a tea company and my tea company is founded on the principles of fairness and quality and healthy for humans and the planet. And, you know, what plagues the coffee industry and the chocolate industry also plagues the tea industry.

And that was one of the things I became so egregiously aware of. Even fair trade. Unfortunately, fair trade isn't always fair, which was really disappointing to me.

I came up across some very surprising things as a buyer and learned a lot from some really cool people in the industry. So, yeah, see, again, here's a here's an example of where, you know, somebody created well intended, I might add, they created a process where you can get a symbol that, you know, will boast, you know, a more healthful or a more fair contents in a product. But whenever we have a system like that in place and a label, unfortunately, there are forces that will find ways to exploit that process where you can basically pay for it instead of following the process.

[Kevin] (22:28 - 22:52)
Right. And I we're definitely going to be covering that in a future episode, all the the labeling and organic and all that. I do just want to I do just want to point out, though, that since you own the company, you can actually name the brand of your tea company if you want.

It's not like that other sports drink because we don't own that. So go ahead. And this this podcast is brought to you by this podcast is brought to you by.

[Michelle] (22:52 - 24:29)
All right. So I yeah. So as a practicing nutritionist, I have a flourished nutrition program under B nutrition, which is part of BT's and the B in B nutrition and BT stands for balanced energy.

That's kind of where I wanted to come from. Balanced energy, T's balanced energy, nutrition, balanced energy, healing arts is another thing that I do that we are living in a world that is so out of balance. We're so out of out of balance with, you know, our work life, of course, but also with our with our health and with our wellness, with how we spend our time and where we place our value on things.

You know, we often will stress over spending another two hours at the office, but then we let our personal relationships slide, for example, or we don't take time for ourselves. So balanced and balanced energy teases about bringing that fairness not only to yourself, but here's my principle. We shouldn't make money in the West at the expense of somebody else.

Everything should be in balance and our bodies should be in balance. And when we live from that perspective, it changes the way that we look at things. It changes the way that we look when we're shopping.

It changes the way that we look at food. And hopefully it changes the way that we look at how we spend our time. So, yeah, balanced energy teas, BTs, and then I have a lovely shop.

If you happen to be in the area or in the neighborhood, drop by 268 Piccadilly Street to the tea lounge where you can experience BTs and more and where you can have a deeper experience with your food and with your drink and with each other.

[Kevin] (24:29 - 24:35)
So just to clarify, and just to clarify, that is in London, Ontario, Canada.

[Michelle] (24:36 - 24:37)
The other London. Yes.

[Kevin] (24:37 - 25:18)
Yeah, exactly. So maybe this is actually a good opportunity just to also, just as a bit of a guide rail for this podcast, just state a little bit about where we are and what you, I know that you've traveled the world on various, you mentioned like 100 hours of a year of doing these courses. I know you've been all over the world, but maybe just say a word about sort of where your expertise lies sort of nationally and how much of that can actually translate to some other jurisdictions.

Cause you know, we're going to have listeners from all over the world. So I also want people to understand sort of how, of course it is. Hello world.

[Michelle] (25:18 - 25:21)
Hello world. Are you ready for me?

[Kevin] (25:21 - 25:33)
Yeah. Are you ready for us? And I want you to, and I want people to understand sort of where we're coming from.

You in particular, cause you're the smart one. I don't know about that. And where that comes from.

[Michelle] (25:34 - 29:10)
You know what, let me just say, I want to be, I don't want to overstate anything either. So I come to, I come to this very humbly and you know, I have traveled, but you know what, Kev, I haven't even traveled as much as you, if we're honest. It's just that I focused my travel based on these particular interests.

When I, I'm really at the essence, I'm a curious, enthusiastic human. And I just want better. I want better for me and better for my family and better for the people that I love and care about.

And I hate the fact that we're being lied to by, by marketing and the things around us. So I have traveled, not as much as I would like, but I would say I'm still a work in progress, but I have traveled to many T origins. I've gone to study nutrition in the, in here in Canada, my certification here in Canada.

I taught for one of Canada's leading natural nutrition schools for seven years. And that is, you know, holistic. And what that means is that education focuses on food and our, how our bodies relate to food and how we relate to food environments, food systems.

As well as our mind, body, spirit, the recognizes the fact that we're a whole person that we're, we're not just a bunch of, of body parts strung together. And how that's different than registered dietitian. And I just want to start off by saying huge respect for that industry.

In fact, some of the people that I really, that I have learned from Brenda Davis is one great, great Canadian registered dietitian who has done a lot to influence food industry and, and, and, and nutrition in very, very positive and meaningful ways. But at the time that I was sitting down to study this at the time, because I did go and take a look at that program. And I looked at several programs, they weren't teaching the kind of nutrition I wanted to learn at the time.

And I've actually had the opportunity to meet Brenda Davis a couple times and talk to her about that, about why I made that choice instead of going that other route. But everything is certainly changing. And the lines between those two professions are getting closer and closer together, especially as Canada's Food Guide made their, their dietary recommendation changes, massive changes in 2019.

And then there's the tea side. And a lot of people think that the tea side of what I do is separate, but it's not. Because tea is a food.

And all the things that plague the tea industry and the way that we look at tea as a part of our diet are the same things that blur the nutrition industry and the way that we look at food and the way that integrates in our diet. So I'm really, so I've traveled for tea. I've gone to nutrition conferences in the States and Canada.

I've even gone to Malaysia to go to an interesting nutrition conference. And, you know, anytime I get an opportunity, I love to learn. And I like to think and I try as much as I can to always be open to having my mind changed.

I think that's the key. You have to be open to having your mind changed because if you're open to having your mind changed, then you have the ability to shift in very, very positive, beneficial ways. And it's not good for any of us, no matter what it is in our life, to be stubborn and stuck in old ways of thinking.

Because if we did that, Kev, we'd still all be riding around in a horse and buggy.

[Kevin] (29:11 - 29:13)
And what's wrong with that?

[Michelle] (29:15 - 29:17)
And you know what? That would be lovely.

[Kevin] (29:18 - 29:37)
The world, but the world can use a whole lot of, you know, understanding each other, I think, these days. I think, you know, more and more people are getting stuck in their way of thinking and not seeing another person's point of view. So I think your point is very well taken that we can use more of this.

[Michelle] (29:37 - 29:59)
Yeah. And so what I use as my guide, this is my compass. I use evidence-based nutrition and I look for the studies that industry has not paid for.

So that it's just really good science. And that there's, you know, things like large populations, big denominators.