[Kevin] (0:05 - 0:06)
Hey Michelle, how you doing?

[Michelle] (0:06 - 0:09)
I'm having an excellent day, Kevin. How about you?

[Kevin] (0:09 - 0:11)
I am having an amazing day.

[Michelle] (0:12 - 0:13)
Do you want to know why I had an excellent day?

[Kevin] (0:14 - 0:15)
Please do tell, do tell.

[Michelle] (0:16 - 0:20)
I just finished having the most delicious plate of Indian food.

[Kevin] (0:20 - 0:24)
Oh, don't make me jealous.

[Michelle] (0:24 - 0:41)
I had some lentil dal, I had some chana masala, I had some eggplant, I had some spinach, some saffron rice, some naan bread. Yum.

[Kevin] (0:41 - 0:48)
Okay, my mouth is watering now and I'm going to drool everywhere. I don't want to drool all over my microphone. That's cruel of you.

[Michelle] (0:48 - 0:50)
What's your favorite thing that you ate today?

[Kevin] (0:51 - 1:13)
What is my favorite thing that I, I actually, I actually experimented a little bit today. I made a tofu stir fry. So it had, what are those called?

They're not, they're, they're the peas that you can eat everything, but they're not snow peas, but they're like, they're thicker.

[Michelle] (1:13 - 1:15)
Oh, snap peas? Snap peas, yes. Snap peas?

[Kevin] (1:15 - 1:27)
Yes, so snap peas with some fried tofu and a little bit of a vegetarian oyster sauce. I don't know why it's still called oyster sauce if it's vegetarian, but anyways, whatever.

[Michelle] (1:27 - 1:30)
Well, then people buying it know what they're getting, I guess.

[Kevin] (1:30 - 1:34)
I guess, yeah. And some rice and it was a hit, so.

[Michelle] (1:35 - 1:45)
So how do you, how did you prepare your tofu for that? There's so many different ways to do that, to add it to your stir fry. Did you just chop it up and toss it in or did you air fry it first or?

[Kevin] (1:45 - 1:53)
No, I chopped it up and then I just fried it in the pan just by itself, just to, just to give it a little bit of a crust.

[Michelle] (1:53 - 1:55)
The browning? Exactly.

[Kevin] (1:55 - 2:08)
And then I added in the snap peas and the very sun garlic and ginger and just everything, a little bit of hot peppers and it was a hit and it was delicious.

[Michelle] (2:08 - 2:10)
So does your son like that?

[Kevin] (2:10 - 2:12)
Yeah, I mean, he tolerates it.

[Michelle] (2:13 - 2:14)
Does he eat the tofu?

[Kevin] (2:14 - 2:16)
He tolerates it.

[Michelle] (2:16 - 2:18)
Oh, well, that's fantastic.

[Kevin] (2:18 - 2:46)
It's baby steps. He still prefers it when I make it with ground chicken or something, but I'm trying to do, I'm trying to get him used to it. So I'm doing like one time when I make it, because this is one of his favorite dishes.

So one time when I make it, I'll make it with chicken. And then the next time that I make it, I make it with tofu. And then you don't get any argument.

Exactly. And he knows what's coming and he'll tolerate the tofu. He doesn't love it, but he'll tolerate it.

[Michelle] (2:47 - 2:52)
Cool. Well, baby steps. That's good.

I love tofu. My daughter loves tofu.

[Kevin] (2:52 - 3:03)
I love it when it's done, like when it's cooked well. Sometimes it can just be so boring and bland and blah.

[Michelle] (3:03 - 3:13)
Well, you know what? I like fermented tofu a lot. Oh, yes.

And sprouted even I find is tastier.

[Kevin] (3:13 - 3:15)
I don't think I've had sprouted tofu.

[Michelle] (3:15 - 3:16)
Yeah.

[Kevin] (3:17 - 3:19)
I'll have to check that out and see.

[Michelle] (3:19 - 3:21)
Anyway, enough about food.

[Kevin] (3:22 - 3:42)
Well, this podcast, in case you forgot, this podcast is called Nutrition for Noobs. So I got news for you. We're going to be talking about food.

Okay. I'm sorry. You can't avoid it.

But maybe we won't be talking about, you know, the specific things that we had for dinner tonight.

[Michelle] (3:43 - 3:45)
So what do you want to talk about today?

[Kevin] (3:45 - 3:59)
So, Michelle, we actually have a listener question. Oh, yeah. I love it.

I love it. So we got an email from Melanie or Melanie. There's a few accents in the name.

So I think it's Melanie. So bonjour, Melanie.

[Michelle] (4:00 - 4:01)
Bonjour, Melanie.

[Kevin] (4:01 - 4:30)
Melanie has asked about the difference between, she seems to be a bit confused about different plant centered diets. So vegetarian versus vegan versus plant based versus whole food plant based. She's heard all of these different terms, sometimes used interchangeably, sometimes not.

And she'd like to just understand a little bit of the difference between all of them. And I was hoping that you might be able to help.

[Michelle] (4:31 - 4:38)
Yes. That's a great question. You know what?

A lot of people get confused by that. Nutritionists get confused by that.

[Kevin] (4:38 - 4:38)
Oh, really?

[Michelle] (4:39 - 4:47)
Plant centered people get confused by that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's a great, I love that question.

Okay, cool. So let's start with vegetarian.

[Kevin] (4:48 - 4:49)
Okay, that's the easiest.

[Michelle] (4:49 - 8:54)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now a little bit of a fun fact on that actually is that vegetarian originally, originally, originally used to be synonymous with what we, when we use now use the term vegan. That's what vegetarian actually used to mean.

In fact, here in Canada, the Toronto Vegetarian Society, that used to be, I think it was like the 1970s or something when that was incepted, late 60s. I do have this information somewhere, but off the top of my head, I can't remember what the dates were. But it's around that area, late 60s, early 70s.

That really for all intents and purpose, they were, they were plant exclusive diets, vegetarian diets. Nowadays, though, we have these other terms, as Melanie has pointed out. We sometimes hear vegan, we hear plant based, we hear whole food plant based, and then people get very confused.

Are they interchangeable? Or do they mean the same thing? And a really useful sort of guide to this was was published by the folks at Forks Over Knives.

And, you know, sort of the same company of the film that is, you know, homage to the work by T. Colin Campbell. And they also have like a great cooking magazine every quarter that comes out.

But vegetarian nowadays really, really means like plant, a plant focused diet. But it doesn't necessarily mean that they that they don't eat some animal based foods. They vegetarians typically do consume eggs.

They do consume cheese, and other dairy, unless they specify that they're lacto ovo vegetarian, or they're lacto vegetarian, or ovo vegetarian, or pescatarian. And that's often a first step, you know, away from, you know, the group one carcinogen meats and red meats towards somewhat healthier. Now, the vegan diet, now the way I characterize the other three is that really veganism or the vegan diet is really more about the absence of things.

And it tends to be very, more often than not, vegan is very focused on the ethical side of animal cruelty and, and, and, and avoiding animal based foods from from that perspective. The ethical standpoint. The ethical standpoint.

And not not just about the not just about the cruelty of farming, but cruelty in general, like, like a species is a species, and they're the same as you and me. And so they they are about the avoidance of animal based foods, but there's no focus on quality of non animal based foods. Veganism is just the absence of animal by definition.

So they may include legumes and fresh fruits and vegetables and whole grains, but it may be a diet that is heavily centered on highly processed foods and heavy in oils. So you can you can be vegan, and be a completely unhealthy diet, unbalanced unhealthy diet that is still very heavily processed because nowadays, like back when the Toronto Vegetarian Society was, you know, incepted hippies. Yeah, yeah, the only vegan food was fresh fruits and vegetables and whole grains and legumes.

But nowadays, you can get vegan burgers, vegan hot dogs, vegan chicken nuggets, a lot of processed foods that's vegan. So it doesn't necessarily mean it's a healthy, quality, quality food diet.

[Kevin] (8:54 - 8:59)
It could still be high salt, high sugar, high fat, high processed chemicals, blah, blah, blah.

[Michelle] (9:00 - 9:00)
Correct.

[Kevin] (9:00 - 9:00)
Okay.

[Michelle] (9:01 - 10:35)
Right. Yeah, and a lot of plant based docs, that, you know, practice and lecture and, you know, they, they might even be like YouTube famous or whatever that they talk about this often that what used to be, you know, Western diet patients and vegan patients now are starting to look exactly the same, they're getting the same instances of heart disease and diabetes, etc. If they're if they're eating like a junk food, vegan diet.

Right. Okay. And then so then there's Melanie, there is also a plant based diet, and a whole food plant based diet.

Okay. So I always say that anything with the word plant based in it is more focused on this specific inclusion of things than the than the exclusion of things. Okay.

So where a plant based diet and a whole food plant based diet will differ. A whole food plant based diet focuses on excluding oils and processed foods as well like and, and really focusing the diet on the specific inclusion of whole grains, fruits, veggies, starchy veggies and legumes. But a plant based diet that doesn't preface it as a whole food plant based diet, they will include consciously legumes, fruits and veggies, whole grains, but they may also include some highly processed vegan foods, and they don't worry about oils.

[Kevin] (10:35 - 10:35)
Okay.

[Michelle] (10:36 - 11:36)
Okay. Right. So what they have in common is plant based and whole food plant based diet, don't eat meat and poultry, but or but well they avoid, they avoid but not 100% necessarily exclude, they avoid seafoods, they avoid eggs and dairy products, but they don't necessarily be 100% plant exclusive.

Now you may hear the term 100% whole food plant based. Okay. Or a or 100% plant based and people that use that language are identifying we don't eat any animal based foods.

But if we were 100% plant based, we may still have some highly processed foods in our diet and oils. But if we were 100% whole food plant based, we eat only whole food and no processed foods and no oils.

[Kevin] (11:37 - 11:46)
Okay, so that's sort of at the at the extreme end of like plant based. It's it's whole food plant based. Right, right.

[Michelle] (11:46 - 12:22)
100% 100% whole food plant based. So just to make things more confusing for Melanie. Yeah, you could you could be a plant centered vegetarian and eat some eggs and dairy.

You may be a plant based diet where you avoid animal based foods and focus on plant whole foods, but you may still include some processed things. You may be into vegan cheesies and like other like processed highly processed foods.

[Kevin] (12:22 - 12:22)
Right.

[Michelle] (12:23 - 13:40)
And you won't worry so much about oils, probably very generous still with olive oils and things like that. But if you were 100% plant based, then you would not have any meat, poultry, seafood or eggs and dairy. Then if you were whole food plant based, you would avoid the animal based foods and also avoid oils and avoid highly processed vegan foods and focus only on fruits, vegetables, whole grains, legumes, nuts and seeds.

But if you were 100% of either plant based or whole food plant based, then there would be no, no, no longer just avoiding animal based foods, you would exclusively not include them. So I personally, I personally, my diet is somewhere in between whole food plant based and 100% whole food plant based. Okay.

I will like, like I like I have mentioned, if I'm traveling and something is extremely compelling, and I actually really want it like that salmon that I had in Portugal, then I will make a conscious decision to have it if I if I really want to have that food. Right. But the last time I had an animal based food was in 2018.

[Kevin] (13:43 - 13:44)
So it doesn't happen too often.

[Michelle] (13:44 - 14:47)
Right. Um, but, um, and but I will occasionally the other thing that kind of pushes me away from 100% is I avoid oils, and I avoid highly processed foods. But I wouldn't say that I'm 100% exclusively doing that, like you, you and I have gone out together, right, if we're in a restaurant, and we're in an Italian restaurant, and I'm and I'm having, you know, essentially like a vegetable based pasta dish or whatever.

But there's oil on it. I don't ask them to leave the oil. Right, right.

Right. So if I'm eating out, I will still include it. Yeah, so it just kind of depends on where you're at in the spectrum, and what you're comfortable with.

And I, you know, like many people, I went through vegetarian. And then I went through a plant based sort of stage, and moved more and more increasingly, whole food, plant based, as I got more educated. And as I helped more people.

[Kevin] (14:47 - 15:31)
Yeah, well, it's interesting, because you just said it's a spectrum. And it definitely sounds like a spectrum. But it's interesting, because it's almost a two or three tier spectrum, because I always think of it as meat versus no meat.

But of course, it's beyond that. And I should have realized this after all of our discussions, but I guess I haven't made that conscious evaluation yet. But there's meat to no meat.

But then you've also got your oils and your processed foods, and all that, which is like, like a different axis. I'm imagining a three or four dimensional axis now where you've got different levels. And it's interesting, and I'm way down at the bottom of this spectrum, I know, but I'm trying to work my way up slowly.

[Michelle] (15:32 - 16:56)
Well, I think as we've talked about in other podcasts, often what happens is you sort of start on this journey, because you decide that you want to do better. But as your microbiome changes, and as you learn to cook more things, and you become more adapted, you become increasingly comfortable. And then you also notice, if you go back to tasting those foods that you used to enjoy, you don't actually enjoy them anymore.

And then you start to realize, wow, I don't even really miss that. I thought I did, but I don't. That's what happened to me.

I remember I was in nutrition school. And, you know, we learned what we learned about animal protein and the fat and the cholesterol and the TMAO and the links between, you know, inflammatory markers and disease probability. I stopped eating meat first.

I was, you know, vegetarian for all intents and purposes. And then my husband and I went out for dinner with a group of friends, and it was a really, really nice restaurant. And what used to be one of my go-to's when you went to a really nice restaurant was bacon wrapped filet mignon.

I always loved bacon wrapped filet mignon. And so I ordered that thinking, oh, just this once I'll have it. And, you know, you know how they're tiny, right?

[Kevin] (16:56 - 16:58)
They're little. Yes, exactly. Little medallions.

[Michelle] (16:59 - 17:51)
So you rationalize. Oh, you know, that's not very much meat. That'll be good.

And I cut into it, and it tasted weird. And so I called over our server, and I said, I think there's something wrong with the steak. Like it tastes off, and I'm afraid to eat it because I think it might be spoiled in some way.

So they were apologetic, and they took it away, and they brought me another one, and I bit into it. It still tasted weird. And so then I had my friends taste it, and I said, does this taste weird to you?

And they were like, no, it tastes really good. And this is before microbiome research had actually even hit science. But I think now looking back, that's what happened to me.

I was like, oh, my gosh, this tastes different to me now. My taste buds would have changed.

[Kevin] (17:51 - 18:53)
Right, right. Something very minor like that has happened to me, too. I might have shared this story already.

So stop me if you've heard this. But, you know, of course, I haven't drunk milk for a while now since doing the voiceover work. But I still love my coffee in the morning.

And so I've been switching to oat milk. Wow, about two years ago now. And initially I didn't like it, but now I love it.

But I was on vacation a while ago. I think it was when I was in Ireland. And I was somewhere where they didn't have oat milk or soy milk or anything.

So it's like, okay, I'll just have regular milk. Like, I'm on vacation. I'm not doing any voiceovers.

No big deal. It's not going to kill me. And I just did not like the flavor of milk in coffee.

It tasted odd. It tasted as odd as oat milk initially tasted to me when I was drinking milk. And I don't like it anymore.

And I'd rather not have coffee than have coffee with milk now. Wow.

[Michelle] (18:53 - 19:01)
Is that the second time you've experienced that? Because I think you mentioned a story like that when you were at a cottage up north.

[Kevin] (19:01 - 19:08)
I'm sure. You know what? I'm probably repeating myself.

And I'm probably telling the exact same story. And I apologize to all of our listeners for boring you.

[Michelle] (19:09 - 19:16)
No, no. You know what? You never know.

Maybe they didn't listen to that episode. And they need to go back and listen to that.

[Kevin] (19:17 - 19:18)
Exactly. Go back now.

[Michelle] (19:18 - 19:41)
But that's cool. So thank you, Melanie, for that listener question. And I hope I explained it well enough.

That's a very common thing that there's confused perceptions of different plant-centered diets. And there's actually confused perceptions of veganism. A lot of people think a vegan diet is a healthy diet because it used to be.

[Kevin] (19:41 - 19:42)
I certainly did. Yeah.

[Michelle] (19:42 - 20:58)
And it's not necessarily anymore. The other interesting thing is Brenda Davis, who I've mentioned before, is a well-renowned registered dietician, a Canadian. And she's extrapolated data from the epic Oxford studies, I believe, done across Europe, where there are very, very large populations over long, long, long periods of time.

And she parses out vegetarian versus vegan and plant-based, I think, or whatever. Anyway, I can't remember exactly how she segmented it, but segments it based on the healthier and healthier versions of these towards more plant-exclusive and demonstrates from these very large amounts of data that the closer you get to 100% whole food plant-based, the more gains to be had in absence of chronic disease and healthy longevity. So, I mean, the vegetarians do better than the meat eaters and the healthy vegans do better than the vegetarians.

[Kevin] (20:58 - 21:26)
Right, right, right, right. That makes sense. That makes sense.

And it is interesting that, to the point you made earlier, that vegan, even today, marketers will use it as code for super healthy and ultra nutritious. And it really isn't necessarily. It can be, but it's not necessarily.

It can still be processed stuff that is ultimately bad for you.

[Michelle] (21:27 - 22:45)
Yeah. And I hope any vegan friends listening to this don't get offended by those definitions. It's just really simply from a understanding the differences point of view and certainly not to imply that all vegans are unhealthy vegans.

But, you know, that's kind of the best way for us to characterize it. One is very, very focused on the ethical aspects and the specific absence of animal-based foods. And there's a little bit more leeway to include a tapering off of animal-based foods and all the way to being plant exclusive.

But the plant-based and whole food plant-based are increasingly higher quality, lower in fat, higher in vegetables only. Okay, now that makes sense. Yeah.

And maybe that's helpful for some vegans out there listening to this to think about that. Because I think that if you were immediately attracted to veganism because of the caring about environment and animal welfare and animal compassion, et cetera, it's good to take pause and realize that there's still room within that diet to move in a healthier direction.

[Kevin] (22:46 - 22:47)
There's always room for improvement.

[Michelle] (22:47 - 23:56)
Yeah, because if one more thing I may add, one of the things that we commonly see among vegans who aren't as focused on food quality, and I won't say just food quality, but also diversity, they can fall into a trap, particularly if there are a lot of heavily processed foods in their diet, of ending up being deficient in one or more other nutrients. They can end up being deficient in B12 quite often. They can end up sometimes being deficient even in magnesium and vitamin D.

They often think that they don't understand that you still need... Vitamin D is something everybody, everybody at our latitude needs to supplement vitamin D. But B12 in particular, a lot of B12 that we get is fortified in foods unless we're specifically supplementing with it.

So you can end up deficient on a vegan diet, but you're less likely to end up deficient on a whole food plant-based diet if that is a varied diet.

[Kevin] (23:56 - 24:00)
Okay. Yeah. So the variety, eat the rainbow, as you always say.

[Michelle] (24:00 - 24:00)
Eat the rainbow.

[Kevin] (24:01 - 24:18)
Okay. Now that makes sense. So yeah, no, it's good for people to...

It's good to take a step back maybe and examine not your label necessarily, but what you're reading and why you're reading. And as I mentioned, there's always room for improvement.

[Michelle] (24:19 - 25:02)
Yeah. So eat real food, not too much. You want to minimize or eliminate many of the animal-based foods off of your plate and keep the oils to a minimum or no oil is a very reasonable option.

But worry more about what you are consciously including. Right. Don't focus on those whole grains, those legumes, nuts and seeds, fruits, veggies, and you can't go wrong.

And then always definitely supplement with your vitamin D, supplement with your B12. Keep an eye on how you feel and to make sure that your diet is varied enough that you're not deficient in any one essential vitamin or mineral.

[Kevin] (25:03 - 25:20)
That makes sense. That makes sense. Well, Melanie, I hope that this has cleared things up.

And if not, drop us another email. We're always happy to take as many questions as you can send our way because I like to try to stump Michelle with these questions. I failed this time, but maybe next time, maybe next time.

[Michelle] (25:23 - 25:25)
All right. Do you have a joke for me today, Kev?

[Kevin] (25:25 - 25:41)
Of course I have a joke for you today. I couldn't let an episode go by without a joke. So, you know, I read that by law, you have to turn on your headlights when it's raining in Sweden.

But what confuses me is how am I supposed to know when it's raining in Sweden?

[Michelle] (25:47 - 25:51)
Now, is that one place that you've traveled? Have you gone to Sweden?

[Kevin] (25:51 - 26:01)
No, I have not. The only Nordic country I've been to so far is Iceland, which I loved to bits.

[Michelle] (26:01 - 26:14)
You love to brag about your trips to Iceland, and I still have yet to go. I want to go. I want to see Aurora Borealis from the Iceland perspective because that's what draws me when I see the pictures.

[Kevin] (26:15 - 27:47)
See, I haven't actually seen the Aurora Borealis because I went in late May. So it was almost midnight sun, which was really weird because I remember eating dinner, and we had a slightly later dinner than normal. And I remember, you know, you're used to understanding how the sun looks, you know, when the sun's at a certain brightness, you just instinctively know based on where you live and what time of year it is, oh, you know, it's around this time.

So I was certain that it was around 7.30 in the evening. And I thought, wow, I thought we started eating much later and all that. We'd been talking and blah, blah, blah.

I look at my clock, it's almost 11 o'clock at night. Wow. And I feel that it's 7.30 in the evening. It really does mess with you. It's fascinating. I remember waking up in what is supposed to be the middle of the night.

It was three in the morning, and I could have read a book. Is it hard to sleep like that? Well, you have blackout curtains generally.

Now, the Airbnb that I had didn't have blackout curtains, and I told them about that in my review. But I found it fascinating, and it was so, so interesting. Of course, even in spite of this, I still got stuck in a snowstorm at Skogafoss in the north.

So, you know, even in the end of May, you can still have snowstorms. But it's an amazing country. I absolutely love it.

[Michelle] (27:48 - 27:48)
Wow.

[Kevin] (27:48 - 27:52)
I'll go anytime you want. Anytime you want to go, I'm with you.

[Michelle] (27:52 - 27:53)
Deal. Let's go.

[Kevin] (27:53 - 28:00)
Done. Well, you have a big trip coming up. We're actually prerecording this episode a little bit early because you're going away for almost a month.

[Michelle] (28:01 - 28:02)
I am. I am.

[Kevin] (28:02 - 28:03)
I'm so envious.

[Michelle] (28:03 - 28:07)
I'm going to do my yoga training in Bali, and I am so excited.

[Kevin] (28:08 - 28:17)
That's going to be amazing. I'd probably skip the yoga, but just spending almost a month in Bali would be amazing. I'd love it.

I'd do my meditating while hiking.

[Michelle] (28:18 - 28:25)
There's nothing wrong with that. Tich Nhat Hanh was a very big fan of walking meditation. It's one of the best ways to do it.

[Kevin] (28:26 - 28:32)
Well, I hope you have an amazing trip. We'll have to have an episode, I think, just once you come back on all the food you ate.

[Michelle] (28:32 - 28:39)
Yeah, and I'll maybe talk a little bit more about that on the next episode and following that when I get back.

[Kevin] (28:39 - 28:40)
Excellent.

[Michelle] (28:41 - 28:48)
Yeah. Anyway, thank you. Thank you so much, Kevin.

And thank you, Melanie, for the excellent question. I bet that helped a lot of people.

[Kevin] (28:48 - 28:54)
I'm sure it does. And thank you for tuning in. And in the meantime, eat your greens.

[Michelle] (28:54 - 28:55)
And be real, everyone.

[Kevin] (28:57 - 29:58)
This has been Nutrition for Noobs. We hope you're a bit more enlightened about how your fantastic and complicated body works with the food you put into it. If you have a question or a topic you'd like Michelle to discuss, drop us a line at n4noobs@gmail.com.

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The views and opinions expressed on Nutrition for Noobs are those of the hosts. It is not intended to be a substitute for medical, nutritional, or health advice. Listeners should seek a personal consultation with a qualified practitioner if they have any concerns or before commencing any actions mentioned in the podcast.