[Kevin]
Hey Michelle, how are you doing?

[Michelle]
I'm great Kevin, how are you?

[Kevin]
Ugh, I am exhausted.

[Michelle]
Why? Why?

[Kevin]
I just got back from a week away on a vacation, going skiing with the family. And have you ever been on a vacation where it's a lot of fun, but it's a lot of work too?

[Michelle]
Oh god, it's like...

[Kevin]
And you're absolutely exhausted.

[Michelle]
Like taking your kids to Disney World.

[Kevin]
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I'm super happy just to be home so I can relax.

[Michelle]
You need a vacation from your vacation.

[Kevin]
Exactly. And now work is much... I have a new appreciation for work because it's so relaxing and so not stressful.

I don't have to worry about like 18,000 pounds worth of ski equipment and finding the lifts that are open and navigating all that and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I can just go on autopilot now for a little while and start planning for my next trip, wherever that's going to be.

[Michelle]
You always have the best vacations. Honestly, you should have one of those maps and like pushpins of all the places.

[Kevin]
Says the woman who just came back from Bali.

[Michelle]
Well, yeah, so I've had an exciting like six months. Oh my gosh. Well, I had it coming.

The pandemic was kind of long.

[Kevin]
Exactly. I think we all have a whole bunch of vacation coming to us, but we're not going to talk about the pandemic. Nope, nope, nope.

[Michelle]
You can actually just delete that. Forget I said it. I didn't say anything.

[Kevin]
Exactly. Yeah, I will edit that out. So now it's really just me trying to get caught up on all my emails and, you know, going through your emails for a week.

There's a lot of stuff there.

[Michelle]
That is one of the worst things about vacation is that I wish you could just push pause on that and say, you know, but you can't. You got to come back to all the emails. I get like 300 a day sometimes.

It's crazy.

[Kevin]
Oh, that's crazy.

[Michelle]
Yeah. Anyway, we're going to have some fun today.

[Kevin]
Amazing. I love having fun. You're in control today.

So I'm just going with I'm just going with the flow.

[Michelle]
Oh, I love that.

[Kevin]
I'm in control.

[Michelle]
I better choose wisely. I know.

[Kevin]
I'm a little scared.

[Michelle]
Well, you know, you know what? I'm going to do something different because I get I subscribe to some news sources. I try to keep on top of the industry, as you know.

I get I get food trend emails. I subscribe to some, you know, nutrition publications, plant based news. I get sort of news from, you know, places where I've done certification.

So sometimes you get like really, really interesting articles. And lately, it seems I'm getting all of these updates on weird food in the industry. So the last week I've kind of gone down this rabbit hole of weird food trends.

And I thought, oh, my gosh, this would make such a great podcast episode.

[Kevin]
So I love going down rabbit holes.

[Michelle]
And, you know, some of them are just food trends in general. I mean, obviously, the weird food trends are happening because somebody sees an opening in a market where they can do something unique and innovative and make some money. Right?

[Kevin]
Right. Right.

[Michelle]
Yeah. I want to talk about that today. So it's really cool.

Let me let me just start with some some some lighter things like we know that. Well, I know. Maybe you don't know, Kevin.

Maybe our listeners don't know.

[Kevin]
I probably don't know. I'm the noob here. I don't know anything.

[Michelle]
But the hottest trends in food industry development and food innovation and food tech is in this plant based and whole food plant based space.

[Kevin]
Right. That makes sense.

[Michelle]
So everything seems to be getting developed and marketing getting targeted towards millennials and Gen Z's.

[Kevin]
And their damn avocado toast.

[Michelle]
I love avocado toast.

[Kevin]
I like avocado toast when it's done well. The problem is it's such a trend, to your point. Everyone's doing it.

And if it's not done well with fresh, ripe avocados and like if it's done poorly, it's just not good. Anyway, sorry. Total digression.

[Michelle]
Well, Kevin, you need to come to the tea lounge and have our avocado everything bagel. It is the most delicious thing you've ever had.

[Kevin]
I'm sure it is because you would do it well. I know. I would trust you.

[Michelle]
We do it really well. You got some things in there that's inspired by Gordon Ramsay by putting a little bit of lemon zest on top. There's just some nice little extras.

Anyway, we digress.

[Kevin]
Yes. Yes. Yes.

[Michelle]
Okay. So just kind of like along this, like sometimes I hear people say, you know, that plant based food is such a niche. It's not really that much of a niche.

Like maybe in our markets in the Western food world, but globally it's huge. So let me give you an example. Here's a pretty telling example.

I read this that Emirates Airline this year will be adding more plant based meal options to their airline sort of menu repertoire. And they already have around 300 items available. Yeah.

Oh, wow. That's huge. I don't think those are all meals.

I think that includes like things like their snacks and stuff like that. Pretzels. Nuts.

Right?

[Kevin]
Right.

[Michelle]
But still, like my belly, I was on three different airplanes on my way to and from Bali. So six flights altogether. And there was only a couple of them that I had really decent meal options that were suitable for my preferences.

And they were all once I got off of North American land.

[Kevin]
Yeah. No, I find when I fly, I always tend to pre-order either vegetarian or vegan meals simply because those are still because it's still a bit of a niche for most airlines, maybe not Emirates, but for most airlines, it's still niche enough that they custom make those meals. And so they're fresher, I find, than the generic, you know, chicken and pasta options that they just ship on board by the hundreds.

[Michelle]
Interesting. Could be. Well, what Emirates found was that they saw a 40% demand increase for vegan meals over prior year.

[Kevin]
Wow.

[Michelle]
So last year they served 450,000 vegan meals. And that was up from 280,000 the prior year. So I think they had already like expanded in this space in the prior year.

So maybe some of that increase was simply because they were available and they weren't available before. But it's still really telling. It goes to show you that there is a demand for this.

And, you know, I think taking a cross section of people that are frequently traveling is a pretty interesting segment because you're getting representation of a lot of different populations. For sure. In my opinion.

And that where there are these options available, people are going to choose them. Like even you said you're a carnivore really for, you know, for a lot of intensive purposes.

[Kevin]
That's why I like going down rabbit holes because I'm looking for some rabbit to eat.

[Michelle]
So it doesn't necessarily mean what they're adding is going to be healthy, but they are an option that is, you know, meat free, dairy free. So that includes like a larger selection of plant-based snacks. They're going to add a vegan pizza, dessert items.

I bet you the vegan pizza is targeting the kids probably.

[Kevin]
Of course. The kid travelers.

[Michelle]
And then we saw in the news also that Oatly, which is a very popular oat milk brand, has a big contract to expand offerings with coffee bean and tea leaf because they're kind of big in the latte space. So, so that's an interesting trend. We see that Kellogg's, this is kind of funny.

They have a new vegan plant-based cereal brand called Eat Your Mouth Off. And yeah, so again, targeting millennials and Gen Z. So not healthy at all.

It's sweetened with all like alternative artificial sweeteners. But instead of sugar, it's sucralose and stevia forms of artificial sweeteners. And it's got other, you know, like heavily processed ingredients, processed forms of pea protein and other things.

So it is plant-based. It's not healthy. It's still ultra processed, but with no like real nutritional value.

But they're, you know, creating an option in the market for the people that want to be vegan, but they don't, you know, they don't necessarily want to be healthy.

[Kevin]
Well, it's funny because if I can just interrupt for a second, this is bringing me back to our conversation of a few episodes ago. I forget how many episodes it was, but when we were talking about the terminology between vegetarian and vegan and plant-based and whole food and all that, and you had brought up the point that, yes, you know, the term vegan and or plant-based is being thrown around left, right and center. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's not processed.

Yeah, absolutely. Not, and I'll put in air quotes, healthier than high quality carnivorous type based food. And, you know, highly processed vegan food isn't necessarily a healthy or ideal option.

But it's a great marketing tool. And it's as you say, if the Gen Z's and millennials, if they're into it and that's what they want, then everyone's going to come out. If I can just digress for one second.

When I was in Quebec this week, we were staying in an apartment. So we always have like breakfast in the apartment rather than going to a restaurant. So I always have my granola and yogurt when I'm away.

Oh my God.

[Michelle]
You haven't changed in like 30 years.

[Kevin]
Exactly.

[Michelle]
Granola and yogurt still? Seriously?

[Kevin]
Still. It never ends. I'm, you know, I'm a creature of habit, clearly.

But I always look for, like, I don't do yogurt. I do plant-based yogurt. So I was in Quebec and I think it's always fun going to a grocery store in another city or another country.

Not that Quebec's another country, but because, you know, we get into our habits and we know our own grocery stores, but it's kind of fun to discover new stuff when you don't know the layout of the store.

[Michelle]
Yeah, totally.

[Kevin]
Anyways, long story short, blah, blah, blah, blah. I was in the yogurt aisle and looking for some coconut-based or oat-based yogurt or cultured, whatever you call it. And then I started looking, Dan asked me a question, and I started looking at the labels and I found out that a very popular brand of coconut milk-based yogurt, cultured coconut, is made by the exact same company as one of Quebec's biggest yogurt manufacturers.

[Michelle]
This is a fantastic segue into something I'm going to talk about in a minute.

[Kevin]
In which case, it's basically, I think, I mean, I don't know, I didn't talk to them, but I think it's the yogurt manufacturers saying, hey, you know, more and more people are asking, similar to Emirates Airlines, like more and more people are asking for or looking for non-dairy-based yogurt product. So we should get into this market, even though we're in Canada, so we don't grow coconuts and we don't, you know, it must be challenging for them to make because they have to import everything. But I guess their attitude, and rightly so, would be if someone's going to cannibalize their dairy yogurt sales, it might as well be themselves and they'll create the competing or complementary product that's plant-based.

Anyways, I just thought that was interesting that it's the exact same dairy company that makes it.

[Michelle]
Absolutely, bang on. So it's so funny that you say that. We didn't even plan this, listeners.

This couldn't be more perfect.

[Kevin]
Was that a setup?

[Michelle]
That's a total setup because, you know, you want to understand what's actually happening in the world and why things are the way they are. Follow the money. And that's exactly what these companies are doing.

If they see an opening, they see a loss in market share of one area and they see where they're losing it too, they're going to try to get into that market share. They're going to try to mitigate and it's just basically like any investor. It's balancing your portfolio.

[Kevin]
Become your own competition and you still have a monopoly.

[Michelle]
Exactly. And when you're as big and you have as deep of pockets as these corporations have, it's easy for them to get into that space. You buy up a couple of smaller companies and Bob's your uncle, all of a sudden you're in a new market.

[Kevin]
Exactly.

[Michelle]
So, you know, here's a couple of telling things. There was a VegNews, you know, sent to my inbox. Jeff Bezos has pledged $60 million to build a plant-forward food system.

And this is through his own Bezos Earth Fund. So he's pledging to help accelerate the growth of sustainable protein, including plant-based meat and cultivated meats. And this is kind of, this is where, this is leading us into our weird food.

But just on what you talked about, let me just, I was very curious, if we're seeing this, like what is, what does the industry look like then? And so there's this knowledge database that you can look at called golden.com. Now, I don't subscribe to them.

So it's like, it's limited what I'm able to search on. But I was just looking for top line numbers. So, okay.

So how many plant-based meat companies do you think there are in the world, Kev?

[Kevin]
Plant-based meat companies?

[Michelle]
Yeah, just a wild guess. I would have had no idea.

[Kevin]
I mean, I would say there's probably dozens and dozens if you're counting all the little ones and, you know, only one comes to mind, of course. Right. But I'm sure that there's tons of little smaller ones that are trying to gain market share and local and such.

[Michelle]
Well, you may, it may or may not surprise you to know that there are 497, 500 plant-based meat companies globally.

[Kevin]
That's more than a few dozen.

[Michelle]
189 of them are based in the US.

[Kevin]
Wow.

[Michelle]
So, yeah.

[Kevin]
That's a lot of fake meat.

[Michelle]
Top brands. So just to hearken what you observed about plant-based yogurt, the top brands for plant-based meat are, number one, Cargill. Okay.

Also at the top in this space is beyond and impossible.

[Kevin]
Yes, yes. Unilever.

[Michelle]
We all know Unilever.

[Kevin]
Yeah. Don't they make soap? Aren't they the shampoo people?

Are they making meat too?

[Michelle]
The meat that washes itself. Multi-international conglomerate. Look it up.

I guess. Yeah, no, I'm sure. Arzita, I think they must be based abroad.

But so those are kind of top brands. And then plant-based dairy at the top, a plant-based dairy company is Nestle. Of course.

Again, this Arzita, Unilever, and Kraft Heinz. Plant-based milk specifically, Denon, Califia. There's another French brand that I can't pronounce.

Oatly and Milkademy and Silk are a bit further down the list. But those are brands that we would recognize that are purely in that space.

[Kevin]
Right. And the first one you mentioned, Denon, is a traditional dairy-based yogurt manufacturer. So again, like what I saw in Quebec.

[Michelle]
They didn't stop making dairy yogurt. They just diversified their portfolio.

[Kevin]
Exactly.

[Michelle]
Plant-based yogurt specifically, there's 137 brands. Plant-based cheese, there's 215 so far. And then there's, these are the interesting spaces.

So I talked about plant-based meat company, 497. Alternative protein is, are you ready for this?

[Kevin]
No.

[Michelle]
In the search engine, there were 1,553 results.

[Kevin]
Whoa.

[Michelle]
Because this isn't, now we're getting into really the sustainable alternative proteins, which can be for a variety of reasons.

[Kevin]
But I guess alternative protein could be almost anything like grains or legumes or I don't even know what.

[Michelle]
No, we're talking more alternative than that.

[Kevin]
Oh, good. Okay.

[Michelle]
Teaser.

[Kevin]
I'm really scared.

[Michelle]
And then there's 132 alternative seafood brands or companies and plant-based chicken alone has its own segment. 183 companies that are producing that.

[Kevin]
It's a lot of fake chicken.

[Michelle]
So can I, I'm going to start off. Can I show you some things I found out like just about the plant-based meat space? Okay.

And you raised a really important point that plant-based meat doesn't necessarily mean all of the time that when you see that on a package that it's vegan. It may be, but it may not be. We've got, we see some new things coming out of Beyond Meat this year.

They now have, I don't know if you've seen this in the supermarket, Beyond Steak.

[Kevin]
No, I haven't.

[Michelle]
Yeah. So they've got this new product called Beyond Steak. So it's targeting American favorites like, you know, Philly cheese steak, steak tacos, nachos.

And they've gotten the American Heart Association to heart check this food. So they're able to make a health claim that their Beyond Steak is heart healthy. So, you know, I'm not opposed to this space because I think anything that gets us away from problematic animal protein and that TMAO and IGF1 and all those things that we've talked about before is a move in the right direction.

But it still doesn't mean that it's healthy. So what's really comical, Kevin, is that you've got to do a search and look for some of these ads because they're actually quite clever. They have well-known comedians, comedic actors, you know, doing their very entertaining.

And, you know, this guy is going on and on about everything bad is good for me. And then you've got this, you know, narrator in the background who is just subtly going, well, not really. But you can bet.

And he's, you know, he really maintains that it's really it's really just the Beyond Meat portion that is that is healthy. But I don't know about the rest of it is kind of what he's implying. But you don't really hear it unless you're paying attention, right?

[Kevin]
Yeah. Heart healthy Beyond Steak. Now steak is good for you.

Now steak tacos are good for me. Well, the plant based Beyond Steak is, yes. Even nachos are good for me.

They're better with Beyond Steak. Now cheese steaks are good for me. Listen, just beyond.

[Michelle]
Everything bad is good for me. Doing my own stunts is good for me.

[Kevin]
Well, I wouldn't. Everything is good for me. Sorry, no.

Just the Beyond Steak. This changes everything about steak.

[Michelle]
It's like really, really funny. But, you know, it's really. I hope you really enjoyed that little soundbite, Kevin, because it really goes to show you that they are really expanding their reach and they are making these products fun.

And they're, you know, using recognizable faces and clever scripting. And it's got broad appeal. And I think they really are going to be successful at getting more people to pick these and put them in their cart.

[Kevin]
Well, I think a lot of that comes from the marketing tactics. Again, going back to your comment that it's if this market trend is being driven by millennials and Gen Z, studies have shown that they don't like being told what to do. They're much more influenced by, you know, fun, user-generated content and humor.

So they're probably the ones who are driving the ads because the marketing agencies say, hey, if we're going after Gen Z and, you know, if we're trying to convince the millennials and Gen Z are the ones who should buy this, you know, this whatever it is, fake chicken or whatever it is. We need to be fun about it. We need to engage them, tickle their funny bone, because that's how that generation.

I'm sounding like an old man. That's how the younger generation tends to get marketed to. You know what I'm saying?

[Michelle]
It's a valid point, Kevin, though, because those are the people. Those are those are the consumers that if they target them, they're going to have that share of wallet for decades to come.

[Kevin]
A lifelong value.

[Michelle]
They're not they're not targeting us and our parents like they're they're targeting the next generation of consumers and the wealth accumulators. Right. And, you know, who did I who did you hear frequently at the top of those food chains?

Cargill, right?

[Kevin]
Right.

[Michelle]
Cargill, according to their research, more than one quarter of meat eaters say that it's taste and flavor that are the main reason that they won't switch to plant based meats. So they're not only coming up with this clever marketing, they're actually coming up with more weird innovations in plant based meat in order to. So they're not only trying to capture that market that wants the plant based alternatives.

They're trying to also capture the meat eaters that are willing to try them, willing to switch because there is this general sustainability trend. There's this like sustainable farming, sustainable markets and also, you know, moving healthier, more heart healthy.

[Kevin]
Yeah.

[Michelle]
So they've got the American Heart Association check. Now, there's also some other things happening. Let me tell you about this startup from Belgium.

[Kevin]
OK.

[Michelle]
There's a startup in Belgium that says that it has added woolly mammoth DNA to a plant based burger to make it more intense and meatier than a traditional cow burger. I kid you not.

[Kevin]
I kid you not. That's just silly.

[Michelle]
So the company is called Paleo and the technology they say it sees microflora like yeast brewed to make protein or fats, but without any animal involvement. So Paleo has created proteins that are found in beef, pork, lamb, tuna, as well as woolly mammoth, but they've just created them in a lab. So they're called Paleo, get it Paleolithic.

Yeah, that's very cute. So, so I honestly.

[Kevin]
So you too can eat a fake elephant.

[Michelle]
I'm not sure how they reliably know that they got woolly mammoth DNA. I don't know if they broke into the Museum of Natural History or something like that.

[Kevin]
That's what they did, yeah.

[Michelle]
But they claim to have woolly mammoth DNA and they say they have created myoglobins using short DNA sequences taken from a 1.2 million year old fossil at Sweden's Center for Paleogenetics.

[Kevin]
Well, I do know that there is apparently woolly mammoth DNA circulating out there.

[Michelle]
Really?

[Kevin]
Because I remember reading a few months ago, I think they've like found a woolly mammoth that was completely frozen or something, and so they were able to extract the DNA. And there was a debate in the scientific community because someone wanted to basically recreate a woolly mammoth, take elephant, take a real live elephant alive today and manipulate the genes and impregnate an elephant with what would eventually become a woolly mammoth. And the scientific community was all, you know, some people were like, yay, thumbs up.

This is amazing. This is a breakthrough. We can, you know, bring back extinct species.

And other scientists were like, no, we should not be doing this. Have you not seen Jurassic Park? But no, they actually had a real argument, not just Jurassic Park, but, you know, we shouldn't be doing this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Michelle]
It went extinct for a reason?

[Kevin]
I don't know. And I don't know where it landed, but so I just I do know that there is apparently viable woolly mammoth DNA out there, and I'm glad it's being used for good purposes, like making your meat gamier.

[Michelle]
Well, this is what I don't understand, like seriously, if you're a scientist and you find like preserved woolly mammoth DNA, is that really your first thought? I want to find a way to add this to my burger. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Like, I don't I don't know. But so apparently...

[Kevin]
Forget about bison burger. That's so 2017. We're now having woolly mammoth fake burger.

[Michelle]
That's so funny. So they say they say that it tastes more intense and more meaty.

[Kevin]
I'm sure it would taste intense if it's 1.2 million years old. I mean, that's pretty intense DNA.

[Michelle]
Isn't aged aged steak supposed to be a thing too?

[Kevin]
Yeah, but I think it's like 30 days, not 1.2 million years.

[Michelle]
But you know what? So so I think this is weird when I'm reading this. I'm like, WTF?

What? Like, anyway, but they're not they're not the only ones doing it.

[Kevin]
Oh, good. More people are making mammoth burgers.

[Michelle]
There's an Australian cell based meat brand named Vow that they have recently claimed to have made a mammoth meatball using mammoth DNA and cultivated sheep cells. So but unlike the paleo brand that is kind of adding it to their meat, when it comes to the meatball, none of their creators have eaten it yet.

[Kevin]
Oh, OK. They're scared. That's telling me that they're scared, too, and they know what they're making.

[Michelle]
Well, what's interesting about that is that the reason they haven't is because there are reportedly concerns that humans could be allergic to mammoth meat, as it's been thousands of years since anyone has eaten it.

[Kevin]
Yeah, I'm sure.

[Michelle]
I think that's a valid concern. And that really should be something that's proven before we start introducing it. But anyway.

[Kevin]
Yeah, I think so.

[Michelle]
I'm not sure, you know, that these are startups, they're innovators. I don't know if there's a market for a mammoth version of a burger, but it's it's you know, it's one of those things that's happening that I'm like, these are things that make me go.

[Kevin]
Next, there's going to be like Dodo wings or something. Spicy Dodo wings.

[Michelle]
So anyway. What was next that I had here? Oh, there are there are some companies out there now that are actually growing animal fat in a laboratory in order to mix it with plant based meat and plant based bacon.

So this is because now we kind of kind of started going down this path at the intro to this section that a lot of there's a lot of interest into the meat eater community to still adopt more plant based alternatives, not not vegan, but plant based alternatives. So they're they're trying to, I think, broaden their market, broaden their market share and make more money at the end of the day.

[Kevin]
And work on those if the main barrier for these people are like taste and texture and things like that, then they need to address those concerns or those those barriers that are stopping these people from starting if they like how steak tastes and feels in their mouth and all that, then, yeah, that's where these companies are trying to replicate those elements.

[Michelle]
Right. Because because right now, most most, you know, plant based meats are using things like coconut oil and vegetable oils.

[Kevin]
Right.

[Michelle]
And and that's not, you know, as we talked about in the microbiome episodes, that doesn't really that that microbial connection doesn't connect with those tastes in their taste buds right now.

[Kevin]
Right.

[Michelle]
So there are I guess there's plans to like in some cases, people are trying to grow these animal fats in a in a in a lab and in other cases, there's other companies looking at just simply adding animal fat to it, in which case I don't really understand. You know, maybe there's a sustainability advantage still to having the plant based meat alternative in terms of, you know, less land use, less water use and all that. You don't have to do the farming aspect, but if they're adding saturated fat back in.

[Kevin]
Well, that's that that was the point I was going to make. Like if you're trying to cut down on animal fats because it's bad for you, but then you're adding that exact same animal fat mixed in with maybe you're eating maybe for the same strip of bacon. There's less saturated animal fat versus like an actual strip of bacon.

So it's again, it's that it's healthy or is it just healthier?

[Michelle]
Or I wouldn't even say healthier, I'd say less harmful.

[Kevin]
Less harmful. Yeah, exactly. Like, but, you know.

[Michelle]
Anyway.

[Kevin]
I don't know, but I guess if it if it does answer some of the sustainability issues, then it's I have to say it's probably a good thing. Again, if we can convince the hardcore carnivores to go more plant based, then it's a it's not a bad thing for the sustainability element.

[Michelle]
There's definitely an argument to be said for that. And so like back to the Beyond Company for a second, we talked about their new steak brand. But the Beyond Burger is coming out with a new recipe, which they say is going to be meatier and juicier than the previous version.

[Kevin]
Let's hope it's not like the new Coke. Then there'll be Beyond Classic.

[Michelle]
Beyond Classic. Right. So and then, you know, you're familiar with the Impossible Burger.

[Kevin]
Right.

[Michelle]
Impossible Foods is also doing innovations. And, you know, they in 2023 recorded record sales of any previous year. So and then we have Kraft, who owns Oscar Mayer, have come out with their first ever Oscar Mayer plant based hot dog.

[Kevin]
OK.

[Michelle]
And they they claim that the vegan hot dog market had previously been underdeveloped and underconsumed and that this new product, which was developed with A.I. That scares me in and of itself. It replicates the smoky, savory taste, meaty color, thick, juicy bite of traditional Oscar Mayer hot dogs.

[Kevin]
OK, so I've never liked hot dogs, so that just sounds gross one way or the other. But that's just my personal I hate hot dogs.

[Michelle]
I used to love hot dogs. I really did. I really and I don't know if it was a childhood thing or what, but a barbecued hot dog used to be my thing when, you know, back when I used to eat those types of foods.

But anyway, yeah, so that's kind of what's going on in the plant based meat space. And then moving over to the seafood space, there's a couple of innovations that hit my inbox. There is now a 3D printed eel.

Yeah, you can get 3D printed eel and coming soon to a grocery store near you, I guess. And and this is this is on the on the heels of there's a lot of places that are that are boasting similarly plant based octopus. And this is this is also appears to be 3D printed.

So I have more information on the octopus than I have on the eel. But it's a company or startup food tech startup called Revo Foods. So they believe they have the world's first 3D printed vegan octopus that's made from fungi.

So they're out of Australia and very quick to market with this because like the company was founded like just, you know, in 2020 and they called the product the Kraken. It's made from mycoprotein and it looks similar to meat made from octopus tentacles. It's a ready to eat food.

So you'll be able to open the package and just chow right down. But you can also bake it, fry it, grill it. And they're kind of it looks like they're doing sort of a pilot for a limited time.

And, yeah, they're going to see how that goes. And, you know, this company and others consider vegan seafood to be one of the fastest growing segments of the plant based food market. They say that there was a three hundred and twenty six percent growth between 2020 and 2023, and it's forecasted to compound at an annual growth rate of twenty eight percent and reach one point three billion U.S. by 2031. So I guess like I guess this is this is big. Yeah, so that is a that was I found those to be like super interesting and, you know, weird food is my clickbait, which takes me to the one that made me go, oh, are you ready?

[Kevin]
OK, I'm ready. I'm ready. Hit me.

[Michelle]
So this isn't going to be a surprise to some listeners, because I think we've been hearing little bits and pieces about this for a few years now. But the one of the fastest growing segments of sustainable food systems and alternative proteins are insects.

[Kevin]
Yes.

[Michelle]
So a couple a couple of, you know, sort of fun things that I clicked on. There is a cricket meat company called Yum Bug.

[Kevin]
What a great name.

[Michelle]
And they've collaborated with stock brand and they have created a range of ready meals to bring insects to the basses.

[Kevin]
Excellent.

[Michelle]
And their star product is called Chili Con Cricket.

[Kevin]
They get an A in my book just for their marketing.

[Michelle]
And there are and there are restaurants serving a growing number of restaurants, believe it or not, in in trendy restaurant cities serving grasshopper pancakes.

[Kevin]
OK.

[Michelle]
Just again, along the sort of cricket type trend. And in there is this in particular, really trendy New York City restaurant that has on its menu black ant guacamole. And they also they also have these grasshopper pancakes.

And this is this is considered to be what's a couple of their of their hottest moving food items like and apparently this black ant guacamole is, you know, really quite tasty and they claim that these insect foods confer some health benefits. I don't know if I could go there, Kev. I really don't know.

[Kevin]
Oh, sure you could. I've actually gone there. So I've I've I've actually I've yeah.

[Michelle]
Oh, you've eaten bugs like on purpose, not just by having your mouth open, not just by bicycling at dusk in spring.

[Kevin]
No, I've. So a couple of years ago, so there's a little farmers market that comes to a public park every Saturday in summer near me and a couple of years ago, a company, a small local company arrived and they made ground dried cricket dust, for lack of another word, like they basically took crickets, dried them up and ground them up.

[Michelle]
That's disgusting.

[Kevin]
And they were selling this cricket protein and they mixed it in with chili and also spaghetti sauce. And I bought a jar of spaghetti sauce to try it out. And you would have no idea, like I didn't grow antennae and I didn't start like jumping really high or anything like that.

You couldn't tell because it was just a powder. It was just like adding nutritional yeast or something like it. It had no flavor.

The texture was the same as like a regular vegetarian spaghetti sauce. But apparently, I forget what they said, but, you know, they were making some claim that pound for pound, insects are far, far higher in protein than animal meat.

[Michelle]
Yeah, that's what I was reading. And very small and easy to farm sustainably.

[Kevin]
And incredibly easy to, I mean, these guys did it in an indoor factory, like somewhere near us, like just a warehouse. They were breeding crickets nonstop. Of course, there's already this industry for pet food, like snakes and.

[Michelle]
Yes, they're adding this to dog food, too.

[Kevin]
I read that. But apparently it's a great source of protein. And if it's in a powder, you'd literally have no idea that it used to be crickets, but I have done one other, like I've gone, I can one-up you that.

I've not just had cricket spaghetti.

[Michelle]
Why, Kevin? Why?

[Kevin]
But why not? No, because if you think about it, I mean, you know, generally, I'm going to generalize here, but the North American and probably the European idea of insects is they're gross, they're not a source of food, blah, everywhere else in the world, though, just like octopuses in some places, everywhere else. Eats insects because they are easy to farm or they're easy to catch wild.

[Michelle]
I think, I think it would have to be the zombie apocalypse before I would go there.

[Kevin]
No. So actually when I was in Thailand, in Bangkok, there are street vendors who sell a lot of things, but primarily one of the big things is a grilled scorpion.

[Michelle]
I've seen those.

[Kevin]
They have these big old scorpions on a skewer. It's covered in like this delicious, like spicy barbecue sauce, for lack of another word. I'm not doing it justice.

I apologize to you.

[Michelle]
I've seen them, Kev. I've seen them in what, in the Hua-Fu Jing, I called it the food, the weird food market when I was in Beijing. They have, they, they, there's all kinds of weird things on a stick.

They, they have seahorses, like things that are, that are protected.

[Kevin]
Seahorse. Yeah, no, I would not eat a seahorse.

[Michelle]
But yeah, they had the scorpion and I had a, I had a fruit skewer at that market.

[Kevin]
I am terrified of scorpions. I generally don't like insects when they're alive, but when they're dead and barbecued, they're actually quite tasty.

[Michelle]
Oh my God, you ate it?

[Kevin]
I ate a scorpion. Basically, I mean.

[Michelle]
I'm not sure we can be friends anymore.

[Kevin]
Oh, sure we can. Come on. I will take you and I will have you eat a scorpion.

No, you will not. No, I mean, it's, it's crunchy.

[Michelle]
It's, it's, it's, it's barbecued. No, thanks.

[Kevin]
So it's crunchy and it basically tastes like whatever flavor you put on it. So this didn't taste of anything.

[Michelle]
I'll keep my vegetables, thank you.

[Kevin]
There was a bit of a weird ick element to it because you actually see the, the size of it, which I think is part of the reason why a lot of people don't like octopus because it, again, in, in North America, especially in Europe, a little less so, North Americans don't like their food to look like the animal that it came from, which is why ground meat doesn't look like a cow. And even chicken wings don't really look much like a chicken wing, but I think there is a bit of an issue then that's why octopus and calamari can sometimes be frowned upon by certain segments of the population because you can't get around like an octopus tentacle looks like an octopus tentacle and in which case a grilled scorpion looks like a grilled scorpion.

[Michelle]
There's definitely a cultural difference here.

[Kevin]
There's a cultural difference. I mean, because again, you know, in a lot of these cultures, also in Africa, eating certain sources of insects is just part of the culture and it's a source of protein. And if, if it's an easy, you know, if you're in a country that maybe you can't grow, you know, you can't herd cattle because it's a drought or whatever, or you don't have space or it's not lush enough or whatever, insects might be one of the best sources of protein and goodness knows they're everywhere on the planet.

[Michelle]
Did you listen to the protein episode, Kevin?

[Kevin]
Well, but however, I will. No, no, no. But, but no, that's an excellent point.

But the counter argument to that, and I think, so I think a lot of that is what's driving this trend in insect culture or, or, you know, insect protein sources is, you know, it's been around for years and millennia in some culture, and it's a very efficient, effective source of protein pound per pound. And it's probably way better for the environment. But I do hearken back to one of our very first episodes when we talked about protein.

And still to this day, the one thing I remember from that episode, because we've done so many episodes, is the amount of protein that the average person needs. And I forget what it was, but it was like a few ounces. It wasn't very much.

[Michelle]
Very low.

[Kevin]
And I think that a lot of the insect culture, like this, this idea that insects provide an efficient form of, of, of protein comes from that idea, that lingering idea that we need, an average person needs a ton of protein. And so this is an alternative. Whereas if we get out of this mindset and we realize that maybe we don't need as much protein as everyone thinks we do, we can look at other sources and, and we don't necessarily have to be focused on what's a high efficient source of protein that we can get tons and tons of protein in just, you know, a few grams of ground up cricket or whatever.

[Michelle]
Well, I think this is what food companies understand is that it doesn't really matter what's true. It matters what consumers believe and will buy.

[Kevin]
Right.

[Michelle]
So if, if, if, if that paradigm is too big for them to shift and they can toss a little bit of their billions towards developing an alternative protein source from, from cricket and it has clickbait ability and, you know, you can get some trendy restaurants in New York City to start serving it and start to create a market for those people that are protein obsessed without having to change their mind. I, I totally get it.

That's why I come back to what I said at the beginning. This is all about money. It's all about dollars.

It's also about inner innovation. I accept that there's, I think there's some smart people out there that just get turned on by the challenge of creating something and innovating something new. And it has a more environmental footprint that's palatable.

I think though, I think though it's, you're still not going to hit all segments. I'm pretty sure that the Muslim community still would not accept this as a, as a protein source. I think there's a, there's a concept called haram in what they will and will not eat according to their religion.

And I think that includes insects.

[Kevin]
Oh, no, for sure. And I think, I mean, food is very culturally grounded.

[Michelle]
Yeah, for sure.

[Kevin]
Which is why, you know, what, what we were saying about in, for some cultures eating insects is like, what's the big deal? And in others it's like, oh, you really have to convince me. And you really need, you know, a fancy schmancy New York restaurant to serve it before I'll even consider it.

[Michelle]
Yeah.

[Kevin]
But I think overall, like if it, looking at the big picture, if it reduces the numbers of cows that are farting out methane gas and that are using up acres and acres and acres of prime farmland, then it's not a bad thing.

[Michelle]
I agree things that move us away from that and in whatever way that people are willing to move the needle. But I would still come back to the very basics. Why don't we just eat real food?

We have like 40% or some ridiculous number like that of food that's produced today is wasted. Like going into the trash from restaurant waste, from consumer grocery waste.

[Michelle]
And and a lot of this is, you know, the more expensive, unsustainably processed or manufactured products. So why don't we just get things like I have the tower garden in my kitchen? I have two of them in my store, like and we have gardens.

We used to have backyard plots in almost everybody's yard. Like, why aren't we just eating real food, you know, and and regenerating soil? But I guess it I guess the recipe to fix the problem needs to be multi pronged and diverse and hit a bunch of different people's interest in order to get them to want to.

So I guess it can be a good thing.

[Kevin]
It's tough because food is I mean, and as we have, you know, mentioned on this podcast over and over and over again, like food is very close to everyone's hearts, whether it's, you know, emotional memories of food or comfort food or, you know, keeping family recipes alive or whatever it is, or just preconceived notions that have been fed to us for years. Did you get that fed to us? I see what you did there for years, you know, from the food industry, like whatever, you know, wherever it comes from.

People don't change their eating habits. Quickly, most people don't because food is ingrained and people have their favorite recipes or people think I need to have a certain amount of protein or whatever it is, even me, like, you know, my example. It took me a long time to get off dairy because I just didn't want to.

And I was trying to find something that tasted good and met all my needs. And I was trying to recreate cow's milk in a milk alternative until I finally just shifted my thinking and said, OK, I don't have to substitute it 100 percent. I just need to find something that I like and enjoy and blah, blah, blah.

And lo and behold, I discovered oatmeal.

[Michelle]
You need to be willing to have your mind changed and be willing to try things. Like, I mean, I mean, think about your son. Are you going to be more likely to get him to try the tofu that's in the dish that you know that you guys make?

Or are you going to start introducing cricket protein?

[Kevin]
Well, the thing is, I can hide cricket protein. No, but actually, actually, no. But that's an excellent that's.

See, there's a great point, because actually my son eats a ton of textured vegetable protein, TVP in his spaghetti sauce that I make and in chili that I make. He is going to so he eats a ton of that, but he doesn't know. He because the way I do it, it basically has the same consistency as ground beef or ground meat.

And you can't taste the meat in a spaghetti sauce or chili. Anyways, I could just taste like tomato and all that.

[Michelle]
Yeah, I used to hide it for my kids. I used to put quinoa in there and it would end up getting a crumbly texture. And they didn't know.

[Kevin]
Yeah. Whereas if I, you know, I keep trying every once in a while. But when I serve him a square of tofu that in his mind, it looks like tofu, I can't hide it.

Then he's like turning his nose up and like, ew, gross. No, I don't like that. And I basically have to bribe them to try to say, hey, your taste can change.

Maybe you like it now or hey, I cooked it a different way. Let's try this. So I got news for you.

I could have him eating hundreds of thousands of crickets every week, ground up little crickets, and he would have no idea. Whereas while he still might turn up his nose at a square of plant based tofu. So, you know, there are different needs and different people are willing to try or make changes up to a certain point.

So, again, I, you know, I can see how the insect, this insect trend, you know, is maybe, you know, a little bit weird, a little bit gross. And maybe, you know, it's certainly not ideal by any stretch of the imagination. But if it can convince some people to eat less meat, then they'll be healthier, the planet will be healthier.

And maybe that's, you know, the first step for them to then, you know, a year from now, try something else that's even better. And it's like little baby steps. And if dry, desiccated crickets are that, what is it?

If that's the gateway food for someone to be more environmentally and sustainably conscious and health conscious and all that, then I say let's go for it.

[Michelle]
If you look up this stocked brand on the on the Internet, like it certainly looks like an ordinary bowl of chili. So, you know, I think the answer for this is going to all be in the marketing. And I think that these these brands are really good at that.

They're really good at targeting their segment.

[Kevin]
And oh, they know what they're doing.

[Michelle]
Well, you've a marketing background. You know how that's done.

[Kevin]
Oh, exactly.

[Michelle]
Kevin, you will not be finding chili con cricket in my grocery cart. Sorry, I'll just keep to my real food. Thank you very much.

And, you know, this is this has been a really super fun thing to talk about today. It just makes me wonder. It makes me a little bit scared, actually, as to what what's what's going to be coming next.

[Kevin]
Well, but if you think about it, though, like you're probably maybe maybe not you, but most people are probably already eating a lot of insect, because I heard ages ago that similar to your comment, which I will just allude to, I will not say it because it's gross. But remember, from our milk discussion and what's legally allowed, there's a certain thing that's legally allowed in milk up to a certain amount. We'll leave it at that because I'm still grossed out by that.

Cow puss. Nope, nope, nope. We're not mentioning that, but in every food there are the government allows a certain amount of insect.

[Michelle]
You know, that's true. That's true. I have read that.

That's absolutely true. Yeah.

[Kevin]
So you're probably already eating insect and you just don't even know about it. It's a little extra protein in your Oreo.

[Michelle]
I'm done. Episode over. That's it.

I'm done.

[Kevin]
Sorry for ruining your ruining your dinner tonight.

[Michelle]
I'm going to have a big salad. Thank you. No risk.

[Kevin]
This is interesting. All of the all of the the what's on the bleeding edge, so to speak, of plant based meals.

[Michelle]
It's I know I just you know, I just got so many of them so many days in a row that I thought, oh, we've got to talk about this. This is just getting just, you know, as soon as soon as I got the mammoth one, I was like, OK, this is just getting weird now.

[Kevin]
What's going to be next? I mean, I'm kind of scared what might be next.

[Michelle]
Yeah. Alligator. I guess people already eat that somewhere.

[Kevin]
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michelle]
We didn't talk about the what's happening in the in the cheese trends. But, you know, I just kind of there's there's nothing that sexy about it. The people there, the cheese innovations are huge and they're all over the place, but they're just trying to replicate cheese.

So and so far, I don't see them putting anything particularly controversial in it.

[Kevin]
No, but cheese is funny because you know what? I have a little tiny cheese story for you. Me trying to replicate cheese.

Again, all of our listeners will know my ongoing saga with trying to find the perfect Caesar salad dressing.

[Michelle]
Oh, yes.

[Kevin]
This is the trend. So, you know, I've been I've been slowly, gradually over the course of this podcast, I've been gradually making it more and more plant based. And so now we're officially without cheese.

Oh, I have officially discovered that if you mix and this is this just blows my mind. If you mix breadcrumbs with nutritional yeast, you get basically the same consistency and texture and umami as grated Parmesan.

[Michelle]
Well, nutritional yeast is so good. I've never made it with breadcrumbs, though.

[Kevin]
Replacing the cheese was always the tough part.

[Michelle]
Right.

[Kevin]
But I went online and I found this idea because it's actually something that apparently I forget what it's called, but apparently historically in poor areas of Italy for like villages who can't afford to buy Parmesan, they use this and it's basically salted breadcrumbs, essentially. I'm simplifying it a little bit, but they fry up breadcrumbs with some salt and one or two other ingredients. I forget what.

And that recreates Parmesan for them. So this came about sort of as a result of that. And so it's breadcrumbs and nutritional yeast mixed in with everything else, the hummus and everything else.

[Michelle]
I love that. And you're getting B12, too, in your which is so important.

[Kevin]
It's so good. So now my Caesar salad dressing is 99% plant based. There's still one ingredient which I just can't replace quite yet.

[Michelle]
No, then that yeah, then that means that you're actually you're having you're eating a plant based meal. It's not it's not 100% whole food plant based, but it's but it's plant based.

[Kevin]
Yeah, but it's pretty close. There's just a little bit of anchovy paste that I just can't quite get rid of yet.

[Michelle]
Oh, they have. I did get an article about that. There is some sort of an anchovy.

[Kevin]
I'm sure that I know that your recipe, the recipe you sent me called for capers and something else. So I need to try that.

[Michelle]
Yes. The capers do an awful lot to replicate like that authentic Caesar. Yeah.

[Kevin]
It's mainly the saltiness. I mean, that's it. But it's a slightly umami ish salty.

[Michelle]
There's a yeah, there's a there there is something a little slightly pungent.

[Kevin]
Yes.

[Michelle]
About it in a very pleasant way.

[Kevin]
And that's where I've been holding off.

[Michelle]
But I love that you're having fun with this. I love that you're experimenting. You're having fun.

And that's what you should do. Like you should be you're getting back to being curious and trying things and enjoying your food and being very conscious with your food instead of just shoving something in your mouth or doing what you've always done, because that's the way you always did it. And you're you're really trying to make things healthier, make them more nutritional, make them more, you know, even sustainable.

So I love that. I love that you're doing that. Why don't you stick with that Caesar's salad and rather than stay away from the scorpions and the.

[Kevin]
Only when I travel do I eat scorpions. But I find it also helps you appreciate the food and how the flavors interact more. Because, again, it blew my mind that simple breadcrumbs and nutritional yeast can basically replicate what's what cheese gives to that recipe.

And so it makes me understand a little bit more how the parts combine to form a whole and then you break it down again and try to replace them like it's almost like a Rubik's cube or something.

[Michelle]
I don't know. You're like a chemist.

[Kevin]
So yes, yes.

[Michelle]
But that's my whole point. You can just work with great, simple ingredients without going into this Franken food category.

[Kevin]
Exactly. Exactly.

[Michelle]
There's another general rule that I have when it comes to the way that I like to eat as much as possible. And that is if it doesn't decompose, you shouldn't eat it.

[Kevin]
That's a good that's a good rule. If you can go away for a week and the food looks the same after a week, probably not good.

[Michelle]
Yeah, exactly. I'll keep that in mind. Super, super fun.

It has.

[Kevin]
Thank you for bringing all of these interesting developments. That's that's it's fun to see where the science is going. Little scary sometimes, but fun also.

So I have some topical jokes for you.

[Michelle]
All right.

[Kevin]
I have three jokes.

[Michelle]
OK, wait, before you tell me your jokes, I just have to tell you for the listeners out there, I had listener feedback. OK, somebody stopped me in a restaurant and said they're a big fan of the podcast. It is somebody I know, but I had not talked to them in like years and had no I don't even know how they found out about it.

Like and and this person told me they look forward to Kevin's joke every week.

[Kevin]
Oh, I thought you were going to say they like everything about the podcast except for those crappy jokes at the end.

[Michelle]
No, no. So so I just thought I would send you a little sunshine there.

[Kevin]
Oh, well, thank you. Oh, good. That that oh, that's do you do I really need encouragement, though?

Should you really be encouraging me? Well, you know, it used to be one joke. Now I've got three.

Soon it soon that's going to be the whole podcast.

[Michelle]
It's just my dad joke podcast. OK, well, well, I'll give you that liberty today, but it might be three. Maybe too much.

[Kevin]
I will. OK, OK. But but thank you very much, listener, who appreciates my jokes.

You you have no idea what monster you just created.

[Michelle]
OK, Sheila, Sheila, thank you, Sheila.

[Kevin]
Thank you, Sheila. And Sheila, this next one is for you.

[Michelle]
Oh, no.

[Kevin]
OK, where do bugs get off the train?

[Michelle]
Oh, I don't know, Kevin.

[Kevin]
Where do bugs get off the train at the infestation? Oh, but I'm bummed. OK, number two, this one's for you, Sheila, also.

[Michelle]
Oh, no.

[Kevin]
Why are frogs always so happy?

[Michelle]
I don't know. Why are frogs always so happy?

[Kevin]
They eat whatever's bugging them.

[Michelle]
Oh, that one's cute. I bet your son likes that one. Does your son like that one?

Did you tell him that one?

[Kevin]
He actually told me that one. Oh, and it just so happened. I've been holding it back and it just so happened.

Now we have a bug episode. So I need to get rid of all these that I've been collecting.

[Michelle]
Frog. Anyway.

[Kevin]
Well, no, but it's bug frog eating bugs.

[Michelle]
Oh, OK.

[Kevin]
OK. Now this one is is, you know, for all the intellectuals out there.

[Michelle]
Oh, does that include me?

[Kevin]
Of course it would. Of course. Of course, people who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I just can't put into words.

[Michelle]
Oh, my God.

[Kevin]
OK, that was a good wordplay. I love it. I can't resist a good wordplay.

[Michelle]
I know. Right. You're you're you're such a punny guy.

[Kevin]
I'm so punny in all the worst ways.

[Michelle]
You're a card you ought to be dealt with.

[Kevin]
So, Michelle, thank you so much for bringing all of these interesting food trends to the podcast.

[Michelle]
It's been super fun, super fun chatting with you today, as always.

[Kevin]
So thank you all for listening. And don't forget, if you have any questions or, you know, if this brought up any, you know, stories that you want to share or anything like that, just don't send us your therapy bills, please. Feel free to email us at N4, the number for noobs, N-O-O-B-S at gmail.com.

We'd love to hear from you and answer whatever questions you can to try to stump Michelle. Oh, she didn't know I was going to say that. Oh, she's sending me the evil eye.

I'm in trouble now.

[Michelle]
I'd like to add to that.

[Kevin]
Yes.

[Michelle]
I'd like to add to that, if I can, Kevin, if listeners can please go and post a review, if you love the podcast.

[Kevin]
Yes. Yes. Thank you.

That is posting a review, aside from telling all your friends how wonderful we are and how funny I am, Sheila, is probably the best way for new listeners to find us because of the Apple algorithm and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So please go on to Apple Podcasts and post a review saying how much you love my jokes. No, how much you love Michelle's information.

[Michelle]
OK, that's enough. We need the cane now. We need to pull you off stage.

[Kevin]
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So thank you for listening.

And don't forget, eat your crickets.

[Michelle]
No, be real, everyone.

[Kevin]
Just eat real food and eat your crickets, too. They're delicious. And the occasional scorpion.

Just make sure it's dead first.

[Michelle]
Be real. Real, be real.

[Kevin]
And eat your crickets. OK, enough, enough.

[Michelle]
I'm going to punch you in the face right now.

[Kevin]
Yeah, exactly. This has been Nutrition for Noobs. We hope you're a bit more enlightened about how your fantastic and complicated body works with the food you put into it.

If you have a question or a topic you'd like Michelle to discuss, drop us a line at n4noobs@gmail.com. That's the letter N, the number four, N-O-O-B-S at gmail.com. If you haven't already, you can subscribe to the podcast on whatever your favorite platform might be.

Also, please consider leaving a review or telling your friends. That's the best way to spread the word. We'll see you next time with another interesting topic.

The views and opinions expressed on Nutrition for Noobs are those of the hosts. It is not intended to be a substitute for medical, nutritional or health advice. Listeners should seek a personal consultation with a qualified practitioner if they have any concerns or before commencing any actions mentioned in the podcast.