[Kevin] (0:03 - 0:09)
Hey, Michelle, I got a joke for you. So what's round and green and goes up and down?

[Michelle] (0:11 - 0:15)
Round and green and goes up and down. I don't know.

[Kevin] (0:15 - 0:30)
A green pea in an elevator. And let me tell you, these jokes are like all over grade four right now, so I'm hearing them nonstop. So for this episode, I made one just for this episode.

[Michelle] (0:30 - 0:31)
Okay.

[Kevin] (0:31 - 0:33)
Are you ready? Oh, yeah. Are you ready?

[Michelle] (0:33 - 0:33)
Okay.

[Kevin] (0:33 - 0:40)
Hold on to your seat. What's triangular and rainbow colored and goes up and down?

[Michelle] (0:42 - 0:47)
Triangular and rainbow and goes up and down. Oh, the old Canada's food pyramid.

[Kevin] (0:48 - 0:49)
In an elevator.

[Michelle] (0:49 - 0:55)
Oh, no. Okay. This is how I know we're friends is because I laugh at your jokes.

[Kevin] (0:55 - 0:59)
And you probably shouldn't. Don't encourage me. Don't encourage me.

[Michelle] (1:01 - 1:02)
Oh, that's cute.

[Kevin] (1:02 - 3:33)
So today, as you can tell, we're talking about food guides. So first off, welcome back to the podcast. Now most countries publish guidance on how to eat healthily.

And since we're both Canadians, we thought that we'd pick on ours in particular. So why we're starting out with this topic for our podcast is because a food guide represents the healthy balance building blocks for healthy eating habits for a country's population. And also a way to hopefully teach kids at a young age, how to eat healthily, because I still remember the food guide that was in place when I was young.

This topic is particularly timely now simply because a few years ago in 2019, Canada released a fairly substantial update to its food guide. And it's not unusual to change food guides over the years as times and nutritional information develops and science learns more. So I've got some historical facts here.

The 1961 guide suggested, and I quote, two servings of fruit of juice per day, one serving of potatoes per day, and two servings of vegetables. That's a whole lot of potatoes. And one serving of bread and one serving of meat.

So like aside from the overload of potatoes, that's not actually a lot of food. So it's probably no wonder that people back then filled up on tuna casseroles and hot dog fondues. Now in 1977, they got a little bit more realistic.

And that's what we grew up with. Lots of milk, two servings of meats, three to five servings of bread or cereal, and four to five servings of fruits and vegetables. So since 1977, they have updated the guide several times, including changing its name and format.

But there was a fairly major overhaul just recently in 2019, where they made some pretty dramatic changes. They've completely removed the milk and dairy category, and fruits and vegetables should make up about 50% of your diet. With the other half split between proteins and grains.

And also, they've added water. So that's a whole lot to digest. So let's dig into this a little bit, because I need some help understanding what all this means and why these changes have happened.

So Michelle, first off, I guess the big question is why the change and why now?

[Michelle] (3:34 - 4:34)
Well, every country updates their dietary guidelines, hopefully, in order to keep pace with current science. Unfortunately, we now know that in Canada, our food guide has not necessarily aligned with the science historically. And I'm sure that was the original intent was that it would, but over time, it seemed to have more and more been consumed with politics and industry interests.

It's all very tangled up with our subsidy systems and supporting those subsidies and keeping industry happy. But what happened in 2019, or leading up to the update that was published in 2019, was that Health Canada decided to do a guide that was updated purely on the science. What a novel idea for dietary recommendations.

[Kevin] (4:34 - 4:40)
Wow. And what were they doing in 1977, updating it based on darts thrown at a dartboard?

[Michelle] (4:40 - 5:46)
Don't get me started. Actually, in nutrition school, one of the first things they taught us, and it was shocking to me, was that for the most part, our food guide, as we knew it at that time, was written by lawyers. Wow.

It was written by keeping all of the different interest groups happy with the recommendations. So not necessarily in the best interest of Canadians and not necessarily in the best interest of our health. Yeah.

So it was absolutely historic. I can't even tell you, Kevin, it was so historic that Canada made this move. So they kicked the industry lobbyists out of the discussion, and they updated the guide based on published and peer-reviewed evidence solely based on science.

And what's more was the science that was used as the framework, they made sure was not industry-sponsored research. So it was all independent that had gone through peer-reviewed scientific method and was not paid for by any one interest group. It was all independent-funded studies.

[Kevin] (5:46 - 5:48)
So that was huge. So-called neutral science.

[Michelle] (5:48 - 7:36)
And that's what we call really the gold standard of science. The gold standard of science should be completely unbiased, no matter what the subject is. So what they did was over about a six-year period, they did two huge evidence reviews, and they got input from over 25,000 Canadians.

And that input did include input from industry groups, but when they were sitting down to meet about the guide, industry wasn't allowed to be at the table, and they did not allow any of those reviewers to meet independently with industry influencers, and they did not use, as I said, any industry-funded research. So that resulted in changes that were surprising to Canadians over the guide that we were used to. So dairy is no longer a category, a food category.

What the science proves out is that dairy is not only unnecessary in our diets, there are such a large percentage of the population that cannot tolerate lactose well, and that almost becomes racially biased in a way to suggest to Canadians that it should be a requirement in your diet when these populations really are not designed to tolerate the lactose well. So it's culturally inappropriate for the makeup of our Canadian culture. And then based on science as well, they removed juice.

So juice is no longer on the guide. They no longer use the word meat. Juice, by the way, I should clarify that, because it's a high sugar content.

It's really just another sugary beverage, not any better than pop.

[Kevin] (7:36 - 7:38)
If you want fruit, just have a fruit.

[Michelle] (7:38 - 8:53)
Just eat the fruit without stripping all of the good fiber and the other stuff away. Just eat the fruit. So we no longer use the word meat, but we refer to quality protein sources.

And that can be from a variety of sources, and the guide emphasizes legumes and nuts and seeds. And it shows only a small portion of meat as in that category, and it doesn't even show an entire egg because of the cholesterol content. But some small, reasonable amounts are OK.

And it also emphasizes tofu as a quality protein source. There is also emphasis on grains and fruits and vegetables. In fact, half of the plate is fruits and vegetables.

One quarter of the plate are quality protein foods, and another quarter are whole grain foods, whole grain choices. So a very different balance to the plate than we've seen in the past. In fact, we used to talk about portions.

That was another thing they used to say, like, you know, so many portions of this. We no longer use that language.

[Kevin] (8:53 - 9:03)
That was always so confusing. I never knew, like, because I'd often go online saying, how many broccoli florets makes up a portion, trying to figure out.

[Michelle] (9:03 - 9:36)
You know, and, you know, I still struggle to actually disassociate that language because I'm so used to speaking to clients in portion language. But the new guide really makes much more sense, and it's really very much more relatable when we look at the constitution of our plate. The new guide emphasizes proportions of foods rather than portions of foods.

So think 50% fruits and vegetables, one quarter quality protein sources, one quarter whole grains and intact grains being the best choice of those.

[Kevin] (9:36 - 9:58)
Which is very intuitive because, I mean, something I've noticed with the new food guide is, you know, I mean, I have a nine-year-old son, as you know, and kids don't understand portions. But I don't know how many times I've said, half of your plate has to be fruits and vegetables. And he gets that.

Like, that's, you know, you can, it's something you can visualize.

[Michelle] (9:59 - 9:59)
Yes.

[Kevin] (9:59 - 10:09)
It's very immediate. And even a child can understand that rather than figuring out, OK, how many broccoli florets makes up one serving and blah, blah, blah.

[Michelle] (10:09 - 10:37)
Well, it's very, very visual. And I mean, if anybody is still attached to the paradigm of servings or portions, you know, the rule of thumb used to be, you know, basically the size of your fist is a portion for you. But it's still something, Kevin, that makes people's eyes glaze over, like they still don't really understand, you know, when you're when you're cooking something and then you're holding your fist up over the pot and trying to figure out how many of these should I eat.

[Kevin] (10:37 - 10:42)
So how much a fistful of soup is really hard to imagine.

[Michelle] (10:42 - 10:50)
And what if I have exceptionally small hands? I don't know. Exactly.

Or large hands, you know, I mean, it's hard to tell. You know what they say about large hands, Kev?

[Kevin] (10:50 - 10:54)
Well, exactly. But that's another podcast. No, no, no, that's.

[Michelle] (10:55 - 13:25)
So so this plate, the result is that it's very, very high in quality. I can't stop thinking about your hands now. So very high in quality carbohydrate.

It's very low in fat and very, very little saturated fat. If you if you try to model your diet after what's shown in the picture and the proportions that are shown in the picture. So there's only a small amount of saturated fat that may come from the animal protein sources or a handful of nuts or seeds.

And the other thing that the guide previously depicted, I don't know if you remember this, but that used to recommend an amount of canola oil. Right. So I don't remember.

There is no oil, no oil recommended for the diet. And this is really I know we're going to do an episode about this, but I just want to lay it down the framework here. Oil is not a food.

Oil is derived from food, but oil is not a food. I know that any of us that have ever enjoyed very delicious coconut oil drizzle on things and love yummy olive oils, drizzled, you know, dipping your bread in it and stuff like that, even though it's incredibly delicious, it is not a food. So now something else really important that I want to remember to mention, Canada's new food guide also acknowledges all other lifestyle factors.

So it's not shown in the picture, but if you actually go down and read the guide, if you get a copy of the guide, it goes into the other aspects that are part of a healthy being, a healthy person. So this also makes it much more closely aligned with evidence based recommendations that promote healthy aging and prevention of chronic disease. And these are the things that are currently overburdening our population and our health care system.

So it emphasizes those things like making sure that you exercise, that you get enough sleep and things like that and more. So we know how important those things are. We were just before this call, we were just talking about stress and how much stress can be a factor despite your best efforts with your diet and exercise.

So all those things are important. And it's great that Canadians are getting to see that if they're going to this as their sole sort of reference guide of how to feed their family.

[Kevin] (13:26 - 13:41)
Right. And it almost goes beyond a pure food guide now into more of a healthy lifestyle looking at the other elements that work with food hand in hand to create your overall nutrition experience. Yeah.

[Michelle] (13:41 - 14:07)
Now something else I want to mention to you, Kevin, I don't know if you remember when the guide came out, but our listeners may acknowledge this. In 2019, when this came out, if anybody remembers the headlines in the newspaper the next day, there was incredible outrage from industry groups who certainly were very unhappy that they were no longer represented to the extent that they were before.

[Kevin] (14:07 - 14:12)
Got milk? I can't imagine what industries you're talking about that disappeared.

[Michelle] (14:12 - 14:53)
There were a few people that were no longer represented, and especially if they lost their entire category of representation. So and this created quite a bit of confusion again for Canadians that, you know, they pick up one headline that says, well, this is terrible. And these so-called experts say this guide is wrong.

And then we have, you know, the incredible due diligence that I told you about that was the rigor that we went through in the government to land on a truly unbiased, uninfluenced, evidence-based guide. So the lobbyists were angry.

[Kevin] (14:54 - 15:02)
Because you ticked off the influencers because you didn't use their so-called research that promoted their own product.

[Michelle] (15:02 - 16:17)
I'm so proud of Health Canada. I'm so proud of Canada for making that bold move. I think that there's been an acknowledgment that we are at a state in our society where we have a population sicker than it's ever been.

And they're getting sicker younger and younger. We are seeing chronic diseases affecting our children. And an elderly person no longer has one diagnosis.

They have multiple comorbidities. Comorbidity is a word that I didn't even used to know when I was a kid. Right.

And so, you know, I think there was an acknowledgment that if there's going to be a shift in society, we have to start with the basics. Now, listening to Brenda Davis, who, by the way, I mentioned her in episode one, and she and her writing partner were actually kind of part of consultation, if you will, with this guide. In fact, I was too.

Actually, a notice went out to all Canadians, if you actually follow it, to give input on dietary recommendations. And I got a group of nutritionists together to actually form some recommendations and send in our opinions based on our experience.

[Kevin] (16:17 - 16:21)
I'm sure they used all of them. So I hope they used every last one.

[Michelle] (16:22 - 17:01)
Well, you know, it's certainly it's certainly moved miles and miles in the right direction for sure. But Brenda Davis, I listened to her in one talk say that step two now that Canada is after is to operationalize these recommendations because anyone that still has children in school like yourself, Kevin, may notice that lunch programs. I know we don't have a lunch program the same way they have like in the United States school system, but we certainly have things like hot lunch day, pizza day, all of the family day, all those other things.

We do not see the food served in those occasions reflecting Canada's food guide.

[Kevin] (17:02 - 17:19)
I know for I can state for a fact that that my child's pizza on pizza day is not 50 percent. I don't think except for a tiny little smear of like canned tomato sauce, I don't think there's any vegetable on that.

[Michelle] (17:19 - 17:43)
So there's very there's there's probably little to no nutrient density whatsoever in that lunch, even though it makes the kids very happy. But, you know, this is the other concern that I have is that when we perpetuate that behavior, it actually teaches children at a very young age to place a higher value on those foods rather than the foods that are actually going to support their health. Yeah.

[Kevin] (17:43 - 17:54)
Pizza's a treat. Therefore, like eating unhealthily is a reward, is a form of reward, which isn't a good precedent to be setting. Yeah.

[Michelle] (17:54 - 18:18)
And if the role of the of the education system is to is to build the leaders of tomorrow, they should be educated not just in math and science and and all of those things. They should also know the definition of what's healthy and what's unhealthy. This should be taught in school.

Do they still have a milk program at your school where you can preorder your milk so it just shows up?

[Kevin] (18:19 - 18:21)
Oh, yeah. No, they don't.

[Michelle] (18:21 - 18:28)
I'm glad I'm glad to hear about that because that existed when when my kids were in school. And of course, they they wanted the chocolate milk.

[Kevin] (18:28 - 18:37)
I don't remember. Yeah, no, he has never had chocolate milk under my control because that's that's just pure.

[Michelle] (18:37 - 18:39)
Just adding insult to injury, right?

[Kevin] (18:39 - 18:43)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's that's a that's a bridge too far, truly.

[Michelle] (18:44 - 19:11)
So if you look at the guide, the only amount of dairy that you might construe when you look at the picture of the plate is there is yogurt that is shown in the protein category. But that could be coconut yogurt. That could be soy yogurt.

But, you know, really what is what the picture depicts is there is no unfermented dairy represented in any way, shape or form.

[Kevin] (19:11 - 19:46)
Right. So I want to talk briefly, and I know this isn't your area of expertise being a Canadian, but you did mention a little bit earlier about Canada being at the forefront of this. I just wanted if you can talk about what you know about other countries and sort of where they are in this hierarchy of pandering to special interest groups versus educating their their their their population around eating with with kids in school and all that.

Like, where are we kind of in the world and where are other places?

[Michelle] (19:46 - 21:14)
So we are at the forefront and I've gone I've attended several nutrition conferences over the last few years where this is often hailed when when I'm in the United States and the, you know, physicians and clinicians who are fighting for more responsible medicine in the United States are really lobbying, if you if I could use that word for their for their interests, their government to make similar recommendations or go through a similar exercise, evidence based exercise with the food recommendations in the United States. Industry is still heavily, heavily influencing their dietary recommendations and everyone knows it. It's not it's not a secret.

There's nothing controversial about me saying that. Now, prior to Canada's Food Guide update, my understanding is the forefront of healthy guides was the Netherlands, based on FAO. They have they have sort of a listing of all of the guides internationally.

And the let me tell you a little bit about the Netherlands looks like they have a wheel. It's a and they call it a wheel of five that the first indication on the wheel of five is eat lots of fruits and vegetables, especially in season. So I love that they emphasize the seasonality of food seasonality.

[Kevin] (21:15 - 21:15)
Right.

[Michelle] (21:15 - 22:29)
And it says to vary with fish, legumes, nuts, eggs and vegetarian products and eat more plant based, not too much meat. Very bold statement on the Netherlands guide. It says, unfortunately, take enough dairy such as milk, milk, yogurt, cheese.

But no more than the recommended amounts. And we'd have to dive into it further to see what their recommended amount is. Eat a handful of unsalted nuts every day.

Choose whole wheat such as whole wheat bread, whole wheat pasta, couscous and brown rice. So not the best recommendation there. Go for drinks that don't have sugar and to favor tap water, tea and coffee and to lubricate and fry with soft or liquid oils and fats.

So as you can see, even though they start out with this, you know, very plant forward recommendation, which which we know the evidence serves our health the best, they still appear to be, you know, very much toting the same paradigm. And we know that we know that industry still has a big hold, you know, across the world.

[Kevin] (22:30 - 22:55)
I and I can certainly state from from, you know, my own experience that generally in Europe or a lot of European countries, the milk lobby is huge. Like honestly, in France, for example, it feels like every other commercial on television is for a yogurt or a milk product.

[Michelle] (22:55 - 23:04)
And, you know, in making a dietary change, dairy is always the hardest one to let go of. You would think it would be bacon, but it's actually cheese.

[Kevin] (23:06 - 23:16)
And we and we will get into we will get into the entire dairy question in a future episode, because that's a question that I have. And and I've struggled with that and I continue to struggle with that.

[Michelle] (23:16 - 23:16)
For sure.

[Kevin] (23:16 - 23:17)
It is a tough one.

[Michelle] (23:17 - 24:13)
And just a teaser for that one, Kevin. I can I can talk definitely ad nauseam about about the dairy issue because it's such a it's such a big one. It's always everybody's biggest concern.

But I can tell you that the evidence bears it out that it's really not serving our health. But I can tell you anecdotally, as a as a practitioner and also what I've experienced in my own health and helping other people with their health, is that it is linked. It's usually the one thing that when you remove it, there is such tremendous health improvement in children with asthma, with allergies, aches and pains, digestive upsets, so many things.

You know, maybe dairy wasn't the sole cause, but it sure wasn't part of the solution. Right.

[Kevin] (24:14 - 24:50)
Right. Right. OK, but don't give away too much because, you know, we want to stay tuned for that episode where we'll dig out a whole lot more.

OK, so I have one final question about the food guide, which is also a little bit of a teaser for our next episode. So you'd mentioned at the at the very beginning that water was added as sort of its own. I don't want to say its own food group, but it was explicitly added.

And we are going to delve into water in our next episode a whole lot more. But can you just briefly touch upon the importance of specifically calling that out in the Canada Food Guide?

[Michelle] (24:50 - 25:29)
Sure. Yeah, absolutely. So and I'm going to go one further than what the guide says and say good quality water.

Let's do that. But water is the most essential beverage in your diet. And we can go days and days and weeks without food.

You know, theoretically, but we cannot without water. Water is that essential. And a majority of the population is dehydrated and they don't even know it.

And yeah, when we do that, I'm very excited for that episode, Kevin, because I've got lots of cool stuff to share.

[Kevin] (25:30 - 25:43)
Excellent. And I'm looking forward to it. I think it's going to be a lot of fun and delve sort of diving into water.

But I'm bummed. I've got all these great four year old jokes or grade four jokes.

[Michelle] (25:43 - 25:56)
Well, and you know, and I and I start we started out in episode one. I was assuring everyone how funny I am. But I feel like I'm relaying all of the all of the facts and getting so serious and people aren't getting my fun side.

So I've got to try to keep up.

[Kevin] (25:56 - 26:06)
But that's what you're here for. Well, well, then like go volunteer in a grade four class for a few days, be a teacher's assistant and you'll get all the bad.

[Michelle] (26:06 - 26:07)
Do you do that?

[Kevin] (26:08 - 26:22)
No. Are you kidding me? Oh, my God.

A classroom full of nine year olds. I can't like a house with one nine year old is more than enough. I couldn't take 30 of them.

It would just I'd go crazy. I think I'd implode or something.

[Michelle] (26:22 - 27:39)
You know what? A really funny thing happened at my store the other day. I had I was very blessed that some of my old elementary school teachers, they like to frequent my store and they came in for they came in for lunch.

And my grade two, three teacher and my grade three, four teacher in particular were there and they were telling me a story that I was not aware of that my mom came in for parent teacher interviews. And you can you can imagine, I mean, just listening to me on our interactions, how much I love to talk. Right.

So I spent most of grade three in the corner. But anyway, and grade four and I never understood why. Right.

So but but but the teachers told me that my mom came in for parent teacher interviews. So this was my grade three, four teacher in particular, who she said, you know, she was telling her, you know, Michelle talks all the time. And if you aren't aware, she we know everything that goes on in your house.

And my mom apparently told her, yes, we lost all dignity when Michelle started school. I thought that was hilarious. God bless anyone that had to teach me.

[Kevin] (27:40 - 27:47)
I can totally see that. But you also, I'm sure, brought life to the class. And that's what it's all about.

[Michelle] (27:47 - 27:48)
I was a spirited child.

[Kevin] (27:48 - 27:53)
It's like you're bringing life to this, you're bringing life to the class that's this podcast. So that's that's good.

[Michelle] (27:54 - 27:57)
And that's why my LinkedIn profile says I'm an enthusiastic human.

[Kevin] (27:58 - 28:01)
Exactly. Exactly. Code for Big Mouth.

[Michelle] (28:03 - 28:06)
I know too much about you too, Kevin.

[Kevin] (28:06 - 28:14)
Oh, I know. No, no, we won't. OK, time to wrap up on that note.

Thank you so much for your wisdom on The Food Guide. I appreciate that.

[Michelle] (28:14 - 28:15)
It's always my pleasure.

[Kevin] (28:15 - 28:20)
And in the meantime, I want to leave us with a little joke. Very little.

[Michelle] (28:21 - 28:22)
I'm laughing already.

[Kevin] (28:23 - 28:30)
Yeah. So, you know, yesterday I sold our vacuum cleaner because it was just gathering dust.

[Michelle] (28:33 - 28:34)
Oh my God.

[Kevin] (28:34 - 28:35)
Delayed reaction.

[Michelle] (28:35 - 28:41)
It took me a second to get it. Did you make that one up too?

[Kevin] (28:42 - 28:51)
Are you kidding me? No. No, I can only make up jokes about The Food Guide.

That's that's that's the limit of my my joke creating. I stole that one.

[Michelle] (28:52 - 28:52)
All right.

[Kevin] (28:52 - 29:02)
Thank you to whomever on the Internet wrote that joke. So so thank you, Michelle. And we will talk next week all about water.

[Michelle] (29:02 - 29:06)
Cannot wait. All right. Thanks so much, Kevin.

Be real, everyone.

[Kevin] (29:07 - 29:58)
This has been Nutrition for Noobs. We hope you're a bit more enlightened about how you're fantastic and complicated body works with the food you put into it. If you have a question or a topic you'd like Michelle to discuss, drop us a line at n4noobs@gmail.com.

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