[Kevin] (0:05 - 1:26)
Hey everyone, it's just Kevin talking from the booth right now at you. So what we have here is our very first bonus episode. Yes, we're coming to you on our off week, because this was a really interesting discussion that we wanted to share with you.

So as you've probably heard, we've just finished two episodes with Maria Mancini Cenobio. But as we were talking, we hit on so many different topics. And what follows is a bit of a sideline that we took.

And we don't think it really justifies a third episode on cacao. But we wanted to include it, because it's very interesting. So it's a bonus episode for you.

And just one very minor point. Unfortunately, Maria was talking to us on Bluetooth headphones. And they started dying, because this was at the very end of our very long discussion.

So the sound quality isn't great, and she will cut in and out a little bit here and there. But I think you can still clearly hear what she says. Also, unfortunately, her microphone completely died near the end.

So you couldn't hear her laughing hysterically at the inevitable dad jokes. Or, as you'll see, there's a little bit of a change, and they're not exactly dad jokes this time. So enjoy, and we will be back in your feed next week with a new regular episode.

[Michelle] (1:27 - 2:31)
Okay, so Maria, I just want to ask you something for a second. Because cacao ceremonies have become so popular. And yoga studios and different places all over are doing them.

I certainly used to get asked about it when I had my tea house. We never did do one there. Because I was never really quite sure if it was just a modern, sort of culturally appropriated thing, or whether it was cool to do that.

Certainly when I was in Bali, they were all over the place, too. And I think they were built into, I think, three different things that I attended in Bali. And they make it this big, you know, spiritual thing.

You're connecting with this great spirit when you drink this cacao. And it's supposed to be, you know, you're supposed to have this big moment. So what's the actual original deal with cacao ceremony?

[Maria] (2:31 - 3:04)
Yeah, so I get this question a lot. I get this question often since I started to work with chocolate. So, well, cacao ceremonies, as you have heard of those, it's actually a New Age movement that started in the early 2000s.

Yes, that started in the early 2000s by an American man in Guatemala. An American? Yes, an American man.

[Kevin] (3:05 - 3:06)
White people.

[Maria] (3:06 - 3:54)
Yes, white people in Guatemala. So, you know, there are travelers in Guatemala. He passed away, by the way, last year.

I think it was Keith Wilson. But he used to live there. And still, people are throwing cacao ceremonies there.

But, like, all travelers in Guatemala were probably experiencing this, what he was calling cacao ceremonies in his house in Guatemala. And a lot of these travelers basically, and well, also he was trading, he had his own brand for what he called ceremonial-grade cacao. Ceremonial cacao.

[Michelle] (3:55 - 3:59)
Oh, let me guess. It was the only proper cacao to do this ceremony with.

[Kevin] (3:59 - 4:01)
Yes, of course.

[Maria] (4:02 - 4:04)
Yes. Exciting.

[Kevin] (4:04 - 4:05)
Sketchy.

[Maria] (4:05 - 9:39)
Yes. And, like, expensive, expensive cacao. He was not a chocolate maker.

So, there are people, natives or other people, was making still the chocolate. And so, probably this chocolate is not, they are not chocolate makers. So, the chocolate is not necessarily the best quality or the best taste.

But just because it's called ceremonial-grade cacao because it's pure and because it's from that origin, from Guatemala. So, all these travelers basically took the idea of hosting these cacao ceremonies in their countries, with their communities. So, you could see that there's cacao ceremonies in Australia, in Europe, and everywhere, in Canada, the U.S. And so, everyone trading with ceremonial cacao, what they call ceremonial cacao, and with different brands now. It's big business now. Yeah. There has never been a clear definition of what it is, ceremonial cacao.

I actually, the first time that I heard about it, it was when I opened a cacao bar in Toronto in 2017, is how I started my business. I opened a cacao bar where I was serving the chocolate, the elixirs that I was making for myself. And then, when I started the business, I was making the elixirs.

And I had like an all-in-one concept gallery, a cacao bar, and a boutique, all handmade by women that I knew, personally. And anyway, people was approaching and was coming, and they were starting to tell me if I was hosting cacao ceremonies. So, just because I was promoting my products as cacao elixirs.

And it's the first time I heard about it. And then, I didn't have to research more. I learned that because this man was saying that…

He was saying that the spirit of cacao told him that he should do this and spread the message. And I don't know, but I mean, I didn't have to see more than one video of his talk to his speech to tell that it was not something authentic. It was his beliefs and why I was going to take my beliefs as a fact, right?

His beliefs as facts. So, but this is what happened. So, all these travelers are trading with his brand.

So, like, there are, let's say, people selling that brand in their country. But nowadays, there's many brands for ceremonial cacao. And selling not just the cacao itself, the product to drink it, but also they are selling online training to lead a cacao ceremony and all this.

And so, like, maybe three years ago, I heard a talk of a Mayan community leader in Tabasco, in Chiapas, I mean, in Tabasco, Mexico. And he was, I mean, he grew up in a community where he was taught how to respect not just cacao, but all the plants in the land. And his family was doing ceremonies for gratitude by the plants in the land where they were making the chocolate and offering to the plants or to the gods or to just the plants because of ingratitude for the harvest, ingratitude for the abundance in the land.

And that's the way that our ancestors, Mayan ancestors, the Mayan diaspora were doing, right? Like, they were having, and the ceremonial context was actually ingratitude for the harvest. Gratitude to the gods.

They were doing, I mean, not just the cacao, but like all plants, all food, the fire, you know, they were grateful to the gods for all this. And so, that's how they would have been done in the spiritual context. But it was not like cacao, it wasn't, it was a special food, like as I said, it was a precious food, but it was representing some ceremonial, some spiritual aspects, but in the sense not like of enlightenment, not the spiritual medicine for the, non-medicine for the spirit.

Right. But it was more like representing, for example, the blood, the heart, and their rituals. And these rituals were not necessarily for enlightenment, spiritual healing.

Rituals for death, for human sacrifices, for ceremonies. Ceremonies, when we talk about they used to do ceremonies, it was like wedding, you know, that type of rituals and ceremonies. So, it was, that's how it was.

[Michelle] (9:39 - 9:44)
But it wasn't, it wasn't like the cacao ceremony today, where they have you in this grand circle.

[Maria] (9:44 - 11:10)
No, that's what I think is the big misunderstanding of like this lack of authenticity in this nowadays ceremonies, because the message here is saying it's a medicine that is going to let you open your heart, be more focused, be more present, and being more connected with everyone and everything around. But yes, you know, I mean, what I said is if you have that, you receive that from the cacao, it's great for you. You know, if you feel more present, it allows you, it's a great element, a great ally for you to have meditation practice, yoga practice, you know, holistic practice.

It's good. Right. But in the message, there's a lot of misunderstanding.

And still nowadays in community, in indigenous communities, there are the healers, the people responsible for the health of their community, making remedies with the plants, you know, having maybe a more, a cosmovision that is beyond the physical body, but they don't trade with this remedies that they make, they don't trade with this food. And it's a responsibility for them towards their community.

[Kevin] (11:11 - 11:11)
Right.

[Maria] (11:11 - 11:25)
To be a healer for them. And it's not for trading, and it has never been in place. So selling, trading with ceremonial cacao, trading with cacao ceremonies, that's totally wrong.

[Michelle] (11:27 - 12:22)
I love the way that you said that, that it's like, if you want to enjoy drinking chocolate cacao and incorporate it with some other aspect of your practice, because you can really take advantage of the benefit of how good cacao makes you feel when you drink it and allow you to enhance that experience. That's not harmful where it becomes harmful is when an appropriating is when it's sold to you as an experience that's linked to something shamanistic or mystical and claiming that you've gotten this from this culture when that's not actually true. It's not actually what I heard you say is it's not actually from your culture or the Guatemalan culture for that matter.

[Maria] (12:22 - 13:15)
No, that's where it's all grown. Right. Like, I mean, I, it's just like, definitely this cultural appropriation and like, no, there are indigenous women in Guatemala making the chocolate and selling with their, under their brand and with a Mayan name and all that.

And, and, and, well, if you want to support them, you know, and then you buy their chocolate. But I have also seen, I have listened to talk to these people. And what happened is like when all this became popular, the Mayan were not saying anything, but it's the other people, everyone was saying, Hey, you used to talk about ceremony.

You make cacao ceremonies or you make ceremonial cacao. They became like, yes, I make ceremonial cacao, you know? And then they started to make chocolate and put it a brand and selling it all around the world.

[Kevin] (13:15 - 13:25)
I'll, I'll take just my regular chocolate, throw the word ceremonial on the wrapper and charge you like 50% more and no problem whatsoever. Yes.

[Michelle] (13:26 - 13:35)
I wonder how that, I wonder how that makes the farmers feel though. Like, I bet that they kind of, it's a bit of an eye roll and they're probably like, yeah, this isn't a thing.

[Kevin] (13:35 - 13:37)
Yeah, exactly.

[Maria] (13:37 - 13:58)
Yeah, exactly. Unfortunately, you know, they weren't like the prices that they were charging. So at the beginning they were charging like 50 US dollars a pound of cacao ceremonial cacao, what they were calling.

And unfortunately they were not paying like 300% higher prices to the cacao farmers for their cacao beans.

[Kevin] (13:58 - 13:59)
Right, of course not.

[Maria] (13:59 - 15:46)
To the locals. So they were definitely profitable profiting from this business. Like I said, I think, I don't know nowadays if the situation is still the same.

The farmers now, well, the beans were higher prices everywhere and I don't know how it's working now, but I, I just, I've seen examples of like situations where like, for example, in a chocolate store where I now have my chocolate in, there was this, a client who went to us, ceremonial cacao. And she said, no, I don't have, but I have this hundred percent cacao bar or that it's actually called gratitude. So why, so this is what might be good for you.

She's like, no, I, it has to be ceremonial. They said, and she said that she was buying online, ceremonial cacao from Australia. He was paying, keeping from Australia.

And I know in this exactly case that, that woman was getting so ceremonial cacao from Australia. And that brand in Australia, they are not chocolate makers. They were actually getting the cacao paste.

So already the cacao from Stockholm, from the same region where I sourced my cacao. These guys went there in a trip. They said to the farmer, I like to, this cacao for, to sell it for ceremonial cacao because it's great quality because it's good.

So now they have it in Australia and this woman in Canada, buys it online from Australia. So, you know, it's just the idea.

[Kevin] (15:46 - 16:09)
Well, it's kind of funny because like cacao, as far as I know, does not grow in Australia. So to get like ceremonial grade cacao, imported from a country that doesn't grow the beans in the first place, they've just imported it. Like there's definitely like, there's something wrong.

[Michelle] (16:10 - 16:21)
It sounds to me too. Like there's two sets of appropriation here. There's the, there's the trying to, I don't know what the greenwashing equivalent is of this, but they're washing it in some way to pass it off.

[Kevin] (16:22 - 16:23)
Well, it's just profiteering.

[Michelle] (16:23 - 16:23)
Profiteering.

[Kevin] (16:24 - 16:46)
It's just pure profiteering. It's saying, here's this like, here's this ancient process, this ancient ceremony that has existed since 2010, but it's ancient. And you have to use a certain grade of cacao and like a hundred percent cacao isn't possible.

Like it's got to be better than a hundred percent. It's got to be a hundred and five percent.

[Michelle] (16:46 - 16:52)
In a ritual created by some tourists named Keith, who happened to be passing through.

[Kevin] (16:52 - 16:53)
Yeah.

[Michelle] (16:53 - 17:48)
It's pure profiteering, but there's also like this idea of a, of a ceremonial drink that is appropriated from the matcha industry. Like in, in so much a green tea, there is a ceremonial grade and it is related to, to channel you. And, and there, there is like a hundreds of years ritual around this in honoring your guests and the manufacturer of that particular type of powdered green tea is different.

And it does, it does more labor intensive and it does use a different process of, of growing the plant and commands a higher price, but it's up. So I think it feels like, I don't know because I don't know how this all came to be, but it sounds very similar. Like they've tried to legitimize this, this process.

[Kevin] (17:48 - 17:54)
I think I'm going to create a Jell-O ceremony and you need special Jell-O.

[Michelle] (17:54 - 17:55)
Ceremonial Jell-O.

[Kevin] (17:56 - 17:59)
Ceremonial grade Jell-O. And there's.

[Maria] (17:59 - 18:38)
Well, wait. So basically, so what you know, it's, it's funny because actually maize, it was sacred for our ancestors, just as the way as cacao could be. Maize was like a.

Right. And the cacao were the gifts given by the gods. and so why we're not making ceremonies with tortillas, right.

Or like, it's just, it's just, you know, this is where you can see that there is a lack of information, right. There's a lot of ignorance and these people who, you know, practicing with this.

[Kevin] (18:38 - 19:03)
Well, they want, they want to profit off of there's, you know, there's this idea in generally new age culture and hipster culture as well, where you want to profit off of, you know, basically taking advantage of like old world traditions that have been, you know, you know, tapping into that.

[Maria] (19:03 - 20:50)
Yes. I, you know, like, as I said, is the problem is, is like putting ideas into, into these people to that they didn't believe in the first place. For example, I, at the beginning, because I got this question and so I, I, I watch, they promote it as an online cacao ceremony with an elder in, in, in Guatemala.

And she's a woman who, yes, she's an elder. She's a spiritual elder in Guatemala. And, and she was like, I, I watched the entire ceremony.

He was doing a ceremony, but to the fire. And, and I never in two hours of the ceremony, I was, you know, I, I really enjoyed actually get some money, but he never even mentioned what a cacao or anything about it, anything about it. So, you know, I think we are understanding what we want to understand.

We are practicing, want to practice, but they, they should, it's not authentic. There's a lot of misunderstandings there. And as I will say, you know, because people ask me because my chocolate is pure cacao.

And because I like to talk, when I talk about my products and when I refer to chocolates as cacao, because in the first, let's say my ancestors, so the Mayan, the Aztecs were calling it cacao. And then when the colonizers, the Spaniards arrived, they didn't like the word cacao because in Spanish, basically sounds like, like a word, like it means.

[Kevin] (20:51 - 20:54)
okay. Okay. Caca and French.

Yeah.

[Maria] (20:54 - 21:03)
Yes. So they didn't like the word. And so they were looking for the word and they, and they, they chocolate, right.

[Kevin] (21:03 - 21:04)
Okay.

[Maria] (21:04 - 21:51)
Chocolate. And, but nowadays chocolate, I mean, for, for the modern world, like what we understand for chocolate is what we were talking about, all these poor quality products that it's not actually contain a good amount of cacao. Right.

And that is not, not, it's not a healthy food. It's not the authentic food. So I like to call it cacao because my products is actually bringing the cacao, the drink and the, the, the drink that is the food that has the benefits of, of the, of the food.

And, and that's why I like to refer to it as cacao or drinking chocolate to better, to better understand, but to differentiate.

[Kevin] (21:51 - 21:51)
Yeah.

[Maria] (21:51 - 22:27)
Yeah. To differentiate. And, and I think what happened with, it was also, it's been on a way, a way to understand that the drink is not the chocolate that we are, or the hot chocolate that we are used to drink.

That's why they call it ceremonial cacao or even raw cacao. Right. That's another term that it's grown to call it raw cacao to a product that has already been processed with the chocolate, because it hasn't been, it is raw, not raw.

It's like the fresh fruit that you can get from the tree. And then everything else is.

[Kevin] (22:27 - 22:29)
Yes. I've had that before.

[Maria] (22:29 - 22:30)
But it's a way to say.

[Kevin] (22:30 - 22:30)
It's, it's incredible.

[Maria] (22:31 - 22:41)
I mean, in marketing, right? Marketing found a way to say, oh, it's, it's, it's premium, not necessarily premium quality, but it's pure cacao. It's not.

It's not processed.

[Kevin] (22:41 - 22:41)
Yeah.

[Maria] (22:41 - 23:23)
It's not highly processed or, or, or it just has a high amount of cacao. And that's why some people use the terms to say, okay, it's premium, it's better quality than just chocolate. It's raw cacao or it's ceremonial cacao.

Right. So that's why some people use the terms, what, which are grown by them to just better understand it. But me, since the beginning, what I, one of my, my, the values that I want to, you know, to what I value is saying what it is, right?

Like saying what it is. And that's why, where there's integrity because being real.

[Michelle] (23:24 - 23:25)
Yes.

[Maria] (23:25 - 24:02)
Yeah. Yeah. So it's, I tell you where it is.

And I think that's what people are, people is being appreciated of my brand. Like I don't have to tell you, this is a cacao. I have, I have said, when I get the question, I say, you know, you can consume my products.

You can feel free to consume my products in your holistic practices, because you know where it comes from. Sure. I'm, I'm being transparent where the beans, I source the beans, what's the origin, what's the quality, how I make the chocolate, how I process it.

So you can feel free to have confidence.

[Kevin] (24:03 - 24:05)
Use it in your own ceremony.

[Michelle] (24:05 - 25:01)
I think of it as the way that I do. I use tea for meditation, tea meditation. I see nothing wrong with being authentic and saying, we're going to do a cacao meditation.

Yeah. But, but, but in terms of like, this is something we're doing to enhance this practice. You're not pretending in my unique way, not, not, not trying to profit off of some fake legend or, you know, something that isn't true.

I think that's very disrespectful to the, to the, the cultures that do have genuine history and, and culture around this as being, you know, a gift from the God of wisdom. Yeah. But I think we have to be, we have to be more mindful of this in the West.

Right. And, and under, you know, kind of let our bullshit detectors up a little bit to, to know when we might be being sold something that isn't authentic.

[Kevin] (25:02 - 25:50)
Well, but the problem is though, like it sounds authentic, like it, it wouldn't surprise me one bit. If Maria, you told me that the Aztecs had like an 800 year old precedent of doing this cacao ceremony. Like it, it sounds reasonable.

It's just unfortunate that in, in the 2010s, some white dude came and made it up, but it does sound like I can't really fault the people who buy into it because it sounds authentic and it sounds like something that could exist. I, the fault is entirely in the people who propagate it and the people who created it and continue to market it, knowing that it's complete rubbish and knowing that it was created like 15 years ago by some white dude in Guatemala.

[Michelle] (25:51 - 26:05)
And you know, for all we know, the people that attended that probably had a very nice experience and think fondly about that experience. And there's nothing wrong with that. What's wrong with is the false pretenses within which they were sold that experience.

Right.

[Kevin] (26:05 - 26:11)
And basically continuing to try to sell the ceremonial grade cacao, which is pure marketing.

[Maria] (26:12 - 27:17)
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I'm not accepting about like spiritual practices and, and, you know, the healing power that the sacred plant medicine have, and all this spiritual practice, I'm not accepting.

And I actually personally have a experience with sacred plant medicines. So medicines for the spirit, you know, and, and it's just, no, I mean, I don't see, I don't, I, I work with cacao and I love, and I love it. Um, uh, the food itself.

And I see just pure, um, beauty to, I mean, all, all about cacao, uh, the plant, the food, like the, the, the form of the fruits, the beans, um, in the chocolate, like how it makes me feel and everything. I love it. And I have certain respect because it's a plant.

It's a natural food. It's a food for nature. Of course.

And that's how I appreciate it. Right. And, uh, I love it.

[Michelle] (27:17 - 27:23)
There's enough spiritual experience right there, Maria. Like we, we don't, we don't need to make up a fake story.

[Maria] (27:23 - 27:24)
Right.

[Michelle] (27:24 - 27:46)
Like there's, there's, there's enough there in honoring, um, the, the, the earth that grows this beautiful plant, the, the, the farmers that have the skilled to do it so well. And the, and the chocolate makers like yourself that know how to honor all of those things. And, and allow people like us to enjoy it.

I think there's an awful lot right there.

[Kevin] (27:47 - 27:47)
Right.

[Michelle] (27:47 - 28:17)
I want to thank you for, um, just allowing us to go there because, you know, a little bit risky in a way, I think, I think to, to try to shatter some people's image of, of that, if they've had that experience. But, um, I think it's important for like, again, we're all, we're all about cutting through the crap here and nutrition for noobs and being real about things. And I think that's important.

So Kevin and Maria, I have a couple of jokes this time.

[Kevin] (28:17 - 28:18)
Okay.

[Michelle] (28:18 - 28:22)
What is the chocolate lovers idea of a balanced diet?

[Kevin] (28:24 - 28:28)
I don't know. What is the chocolate lovers idea of a balanced diet?

[Michelle] (28:29 - 28:31)
A chocolate bar in each hand.

[Kevin] (28:34 - 28:37)
I should have seen that coming.

[Michelle] (28:37 - 28:46)
And I got one more, Kevin, I could give up chocolate, but I'm not a quitter.

[Kevin] (28:56 - 29:36)
This has been Nutrition for Noobs. We hope you're a bit more enlightened about how your fantastic and complicated body works with the food you put into it. If you have a question or a topic you'd like Michelle to discuss, drop us a line at n4noobs@gmail.com.

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