[Kevin]
Hey Michelle, how are you doing?

[Michelle]
I'm great Kev, how are you?

[Kevin]
Excellent, excellent. So first off, welcome back to Nutrition for Noobs. I'm Kevin.

[Michelle]
I'm Michelle.

[Kevin]
And today we are going to talk all about, not meat, but protein.

[Michelle]
Everybody's favorite molecule.

[Kevin]
It's a molecule? I didn't even notice a molecule, that's how much I know. So protein is probably one of the more contentious issues that separates the carnivores from the herbivores, from the downright boars.

So when people try to eat better, and I use that in air quotes, red meat and other meats tend to go first from their diet. But a lot of times people don't really know why and where that comes from. And also they struggle with what are some of the other options for protein.

So today we're going to delve into all of that. But first, I want to make a quick note. We are going to be talking about nutrition, and maybe we might touch on a little bit of environmentalism.

But what we are not going to be talking about is the ethical issues around the meat industry. I understand that's a whole other issue and everyone has their opinions. But in this podcast, we try to stick to the facts.

So regardless of what you feel about the meat industry, or eating living creatures or anything like that, we're going to stick to the science. So now that that's out of the way, let's talk protein. So Michelle, first, why do we need protein?

And what you said it was a molecule, I didn't even know that. But what does this molecule like do for our bodies?

[Michelle]
Well, that is a great question. I'm going to quote the China study, Dr. T. Colin Campbell to answer that because I think they sum it up so so well.

And it's one of the primers on our modern understanding of protein. And he says, protein is the most sacred of all nutrients. It's a vital component of our bodies.

And there are hundreds of thousands of different kinds of proteins. They function as enzymes, hormones, structural tissue, and transport molecules, all of which are the stuff of life that make our life possible.

[Kevin]
I didn't even know that there were different types of protein. Like I thought protein was just a thing is one thing. And now you're saying there's like 1000s and 1000s of different types.

[Michelle]
Well, yeah, the long and the short of that is that, you know, when we eat something, a protein molecule doesn't just like float into our tissue, we we are designed to break down the foods that we eat into their component parts, in this case, amino acids, and then those amino acids go into an amino acid pool, which is utilized by our body as we need to support some sort of a function. So think of it as like a big box of Lego. And if it if you need to make a protein in terms of structural protein, then it will assemble those amino acids to make that if it needs to make a hormone, it assembles what it needs to make that particular hormone, if it needs to make an enzyme, it makes that so I think where we run into trouble with deficiency is when we have an insufficient diet, and we're missing one or more of those building blocks. So it would be like opening a box of Lego, and you're trying to follow the picture to make whatever structure is in your box, but you're missing all of the yellow blocks.

[Kevin]
Oh, you can never have enough yellow blocks.

[Michelle]
I'm just picking on yellow. So So that's really how it works. And I think understanding that foundation of how we utilize our food in order to support all of our various mechanisms helps us understand sort of what proteins do.

[Kevin]
Okay, no, that makes sense. I so it really is kind of like, you know, grade 12 chemistry class where you've got all the different parts and the molecules and they come together to form chains and the chains do different things, essentially.

[Michelle]
Yeah, absolutely. But when we talk about protein, most people are talking about structural proteins, that that actually are, you know, part of tissue repair and organs and, and, and such. And then there are the non protein forming amino acids that, you know, are part of other functions.

And a good example is one that's in tea, that L-theanine, and I'm sure we'll talk about that in another, another episode. But the there's so many different types of amino acids that make up these protein molecules. And I'm putting protein if you could see me around in air quotes, because some of them are protein, but some of them are hormones, some of them are neurotransmitters, some of them are enzymes, etc.

[Kevin]
Okay, okay, so it's more of a larger category of things and protein is just one piece of the puzzle. Okay, so how much protein and I'm using the very generic term now, because I'll continue to be using that forever. I mean, I don't understand the science of it.

But how much protein does an average person actually need? Because I've heard a lot of different numbers and different concepts. And can you add some clarity to that?

[Michelle]
I sure can. So I'm going to tell you what the what the current protein requirements are that are, you know, according to RDA and World Health Organization recommendations, etc. But if I can, are you going to let me go into history a little bit, because I think it's really interesting to understand how we got there.

And then it's going to set us up a little bit for some of the points that I want to make. So our current recommended daily allowance for protein is 0.8 grams per kilogram per day. The World Health Organization and slightly updated research, they now recommend 0.83 grams per kilogram per day. And if you were a person who follows a whole food plant based diet, or a very plant centered diet, that for an adult, they're recommending 0.9 grams per kilogram per day, just based on, you know, digestibility slightly a little bit more. But you know that, you know, what does that mean exactly? So what that means is really, if you are a healthy person who weighs about 135 pounds or 61 kilograms, then you would multiply that 61 times 0.9. And that would be 55 grams of protein. And that is the requirement, the daily requirement. And Kevin, that's way, way, way less than most people consume in a day. Most people are consuming like four times that.

[Kevin]
Right. I mean, just to change this for, you know, our U.S. friends, that ends up being 55 grams is just a little, almost a little bit less than two ounces. It's 1.94 ounces. And I'm thinking, you know, at the typical steakhouse, like the smallest steak you can get would be like six ounces. And even that's like more of a child portion the way they advertise it. So that's, and that's more than three times in one meal, in one sitting what you need.

[Michelle]
It's crazy. It's crazy. And then think about, you know, there's a there's a popular steakhouse that they have, like the giant portion they call the baseball.

And and things are like, double burgers, triple burgers, quadruple burgers. We are in a, we live in a protein obsessed society. And I actually cringe when people come to me and they ask about protein powder, and adding and they're adding, they're eating these massive amounts of protein in their diet.

And then they're also thinking that they're not getting enough because they're working out or they're training for a race or a triathlon or something. And then they're adding extra protein that they really don't need into their smoothies every morning. And that the downside of this is that if you have to, I think this is one of your questions, if you have too much protein, it actually can do damage to your liver and your kidneys.

Because we, you know, they, we have to deal with all of that excess and, and it's not good for us.

[Kevin]
So can I just ask, and if you don't have the answer off the top of your head, I forgive you, and everyone forgives you. But I mean, this is just got me thinking. So, you know, without dropping any, any, you know, names, a typical, you know, quarter pound hamburger out there, that's four ounces, a quarter pound is four ounces, which means that's more than double, just a little bit over double your daily.

So when you say, if you get too much protein that can, you know, hurt your liver and such, like, how much is too much? Like how much leeway do we have? Because, you know, people will often have a quarter pounder for lunch, and then maybe another source of protein for dinner.

And that could be like six, that could end up being six or eight times your daily intake, or more, if you go to a baseball steakhouse or whatever, you know, and have the, you know, 40 ounce, whatever. So how much could you eat before you start seeing that damage? Or is there a clear cutoff?

[Michelle]
I think that would be too complex of a question, because it would also have to be in context of what else are you eating? What else are you doing, before we can really start to make a judgment about harm. But I would say that, you know, we know that there's different qualities of protein and animal protein and plant based protein are not equal.

And you are going to do much better having large amounts of plant based protein and you are going, the harm potential is going to be exponential with every additional gram of animal based protein.

[Kevin]
Okay, so can we delve into that a little bit? Can you talk a little bit about the differences between animal based protein and plant based protein and how they, how your body deals with them and absorbs it and uses it and all that stuff? I don't understand.

[Michelle]
Sure. So, so really the long and the short of it is that plant based protein are very well aligned with the human digestive tract and how we assimilate and they're very easy for us to digest. And there's no harmful byproducts that are produced by our in our gut as a result of consuming plant based protein.

It's a very clean burning protein for the body. Animal based protein actually raises a IGF-1 or insulin like growth factor. And it also produces TMAO.

Basically, we end up, there's an interaction with our gut microbiome and your current gut microbiome is a byproduct of your current diet. And if you have a high animal protein based diet, then your body's going to be populated with microbes that support those foods and are that those foods are the fuel of those microbes and those microbes are going to produce TMAO. So there's a lot of inflammatory disease promoting chemicals or toxins, if you will, without getting too technical, that are directly linked to the consumption of animal proteins.

But you know what? Can I go to the history lesson that I want to give you?

[Kevin]
Of course, please, please do. I love a good history lesson.

[Michelle]
I think I really find that I benefit from understanding some of these concepts when you can go back and go, why is it the way that it is?

[Kevin]
Of course, context always helps.

[Michelle]
Exactly. So let's talk about where protein even was discovered. So the actual chemical structure protein was discovered by a Dutch chemist Gerardus Mulder.

And the word protein means of prime importance in Greek or proteus. So an erroneous leap kind of ensued after this discovery. And because people who then advanced protein research took that of prime importance to mean since humans are made of human meat, for all intents and purposes, that we needed to eat meat in order to get more of it.

But actually, there's a lot of people who have written about this. There's something about this in Proteinaholic by Garth Davis and the China study by T. Colin Campbell, that, you know, what Mulder actually meant by was that protein molecules of are of prime importance in our physical structures.

But the perspectives that followed have since placed an emphasis on protein as a part of diet, rather than referring to its structural biology, right. So, you know, there's a really fascinating history of, you know, that takes you from scientist to scientist. And it's it's anybody can access it.

It's by Dr. John McDougal. And it's in the McDougal newsletter. And look in particular for issue, you know, volume two, number 12 in December 2003.

But let me let me just tell you're gonna find some of this actually kind of comical, but or scary. One of the earliest proponents of a high protein diet was a German physiologist, Karl Voigt. So he first so he Voigt studied all of these manual laborers who consumed about 3100 calories per day, and he concluded that protein intake for people should be 118 grams per day.

Wow, based on these based on these laborers. And then and then over 100 years ago, in like 1905, there was another guy, Russell Chittenden. He was a professor of chemistry, I think at Yale, and he published findings on human protein in his protein needs in his classic book, physiological economy and nutrition.

Now, you would think that when Chittenden published this book, it would have kind of undeads done some of these things that Voigt made pervasive. Because here's what Chittenden said. He said that people did not become prosperous because they ate high protein diets rather that they ate meat and other expensive protein foods simply because they could afford them.

So here's what he wrote, we are all creatures of habit. Our palates are pleasantly excited by the rich animal foods with their high content of protein. And we may well question whether our dietetic habits are not based more on upon what dictates our palate, rather than upon scientific reasoning and our actual true physiological need.

So he did a lot that he did a lot that showed that the initial evidence that protein intake beyond the human requirement could cause injury to our body, especially the liver and kidneys. So he was the first one to say that but you know, people didn't really didn't really like that perspective. So research, research went on in the in the other direction.

The real shocking study that came through for me, Kevin was when I learned that modern protein requirements and the idea of complete versus incomplete proteins, which are still today, the contemporary standard of all formal protein education was based on a series of studies on way for it.

[Kevin]
Okay.

[Michelle]
Rats. This is so true. So we have this idea, right, that that animal foods contain protein superior in quality to the protein that are found in plants, right.

And this is a misconception that goes all the way back to 1914. So it started with a couple of guys named like Mendel and Osborne. And they studied the protein requirements of laboratory rats and D demonstrated that nutritional requirements for you know, individual amino acids to make proteins and they found that rats grew better on animal sources of protein than on vegetable sources.

So they suspected based on that study that vegetable foods had insufficient amounts of some of the amino acids that are essential for the normal growth of a rat. I can't even keep I can't even keep a straight face talking about this.

[Kevin]
So much wrong with this because that's now assuming that basically, according to their theory, then no herbivore should be able to live. Vegetable matter doesn't have like I don't even understand that.

[Michelle]
Tell that to the giraffe, right?

[Kevin]
Yeah, exactly.

[Michelle]
This is where the first thoughts came from that vegetable proteins are inferior to animal based proteins based on a bunch of rodents. Yes. And then a guy named William Rose at University of Illinois around the 1940s found that, you know, that there were 10 amino acids essential for a rat's diet and removal of any one of those essential amino acids would lead to nutritive failure.

[Kevin]
Okay, well, that's good for the rats. But like, exactly. It seems like it seems like quite a jump to go from rats to humans.

Because again, it feels like comparing like, well, an elephant and a lion have two different diets. So for a lion like, you know, bamboo or whatever elephant seed I don't even know would be completely deficient. Therefore, an animal the size of an elephant shouldn't exist like, I don't even understand.

[Michelle]
So things get a little bit more reasonable when subsequent research was done. And they found that the ideal protein pattern in a human is not exactly the same as a rat.

[Kevin]
Oh, give them a Nobel Prize for that.

[Michelle]
It gets better. And then it gets a little bit worse. So Rose, the guy that did this initial observation about 10 amino acids for rats, he went on to do studies on humans, graduate students actually.

But he followed the exact same methodology that he had used on rats. So I can't even keep a straight face talking about this. So here's what he fed them.

He fed the humans in his protein study, a diet consisting of cornstarch, sucrose, butterfat, without protein, corn oil, inorganic salts, the known vitamins and mixtures of highly purified amino acids. And he also included in their diet one large brown candy, which contained a concentrated liver extract to supply unknown vitamins, sugar, and he also added peppermint oil to that apparently for flavor.

[Kevin]
Excuse me while I go vomit. That sounds a brown candy with unknown vitamins and peppermint liver.

[Michelle]
So it's incredible to me that our current views on protein relative to the human diet was based on these rat studies.

[Kevin]
On a peppermint flavored liver candy. Nice.

[Michelle]
So here's the long and the short of it. Rats have significantly different protein requirements than humans.

For one thing, rats double their birth weight in four days, and they grow to maturity within a few weeks. So their growth and maintenance is fundamentally different than humans, and not to mention the fact that they have to grow fur.

[Kevin]
And the scientists didn't seem to realize this fundamental difference between humans and rodents. Okay.

[Michelle]
And that alone, the fur covering alone might account for the 10 essential amino acids as opposed to the 8 in human diet, right? Because there's specific proteins and amino acids required to grow fur, which we don't need. Well, I've come across a few hairy humans, but...

[Kevin]
Well that's true, but that's another podcast.

[Michelle]
And also, in those experiments they used, with the rats, they used single food sources for the rats. They used either cheese or wheat. And humans have a varied diet.

So baby rats will die on a human breast milk, but they will thrive...

[Kevin]
Because they're not humans.

[Michelle]
They will thrive on rat milk or cow milk or other animal types of milk. Kevin, we are not rats.

[Kevin]
Oh, thank you. I needed that positive affirmation at this point, because I feel some of these scientists might have been like the missing link or something between rodents and humans. I don't know.

[Michelle]
I know. But for me, this whole protein argument, here's where the rubber hits the road for me. In school, we studied traditional diets and particularly centenarian societies and took a look at where are people living the longest and have the lowest incidence of chronic disease.

And we found that in those traditional societies where they have, where they live to be a very long age with either complete absence of Western chronic diseases or very low instance of it, that they have what they have in common, no matter where they are in the globe and they're all over the globe. They have less than 10% animal proteins in their diet. And T.

Colin Campbell, who was one of the main researchers in the China study, and he wrote the book, The China Study, co-authored by his son, Thomas Campbell, it was declared the largest epidemiological research ever conducted on the links between diet and disease with very, very large populations of people over a very long span. And it's considered the Grand Prix, actually, of epidemiology. And they found, so he actually went into that study looking to prove the high animal protein requirements of humans and actually was quite surprised in his own research to find that it proved the opposite.

And in fact, the key thing that he discovered in that study was that animal protein turns on cancer gene expression in humans and removing it turns it off.

[Kevin]
Oh, wow.

[Michelle]
So that was really mind-blowing to me. Right. And so I went on after learning that little nugget, it was like a paragraph in one of our textbooks.

And then I went on to read The China Study cover to cover multiple times and other research by Thomas Campbell. He's got a great book, Whole. And I went on also to go to study his program at Cornell University in plant-based nutrition, which I'm recertifying, actually, right now.

[Kevin]
Oh, excellent.

[Michelle]
Yeah, just because I want to. I like to stay up with the research.

[Kevin]
No, and that's important because clearly it's changing. Because if you didn't stay up on the research, you might still think that rats are the baseline for human protein. So please stay up on the research, please.

[Michelle]
So this is why in our westernized diet, whenever we introduce the westernized diet into other cultures, then their rates of chronic disease, including cancers, start to skyrocket. But if they stick to their traditional diets that are very high in plant sources of foods, plant-centered diets, plant sources of protein, they have little or no instances of cancers and other chronic diseases, such as heart disease, etc. And this is all due to these toxins that get produced by our body when we consume animal protein.

[Kevin]
Okay, interesting. Interesting. So I have a couple sort of rubber-hitting-the-road questions about, you know, moving towards more plant-based protein, because it sounds like that's absolutely the way to go.

So first question is, like, a lot of people, they cut out red meat, but they keep, you know, so-called white meat, like chicken and fish and all that. Is there a fundamental difference between red meat, like beef mainly, versus like fish or chicken? Or is animal protein more or less animal protein?

Or are there differences?

[Michelle]
Well, that's really interesting, because actually in the Cornell program, I actually asked that question to the faculty when I was going through my certification the first time. Because a majority of Campbell's research studies centered on casein, which is the main protein in cow's milk, and also cheese, yogurt, all those things. But their studies actually did include multiple forms of animal protein.

And what they concluded was that all animal-based proteins are similar in terms of that protein molecule. So you're always going to get that same risk, that disease-promoting risk, no matter what the animal source is. So where there are huge differences in types of animal proteins is perhaps saturated fats.

There still will be significant saturated fat, whether it's a chicken, whether it's, you know, a cow or whatnot. And there's certainly, it's really more of an iron difference, to be honest, Kevin. And when I'm thinking about this off the top of my head, it's more about the heme iron that would be more pervasive, I think, in a beef as opposed to a chicken.

But the long and the short of Campbell's research, and this has been sort of supported in the literature again and again and again. In fact, you'll find that every cancer diet will recommend significantly reducing or eliminating altogether animal-based foods, as will a heart disease diet, as will a diabetes diet. They won't necessarily say that you have to be 100% whole food plant-based.

And I don't think we have any evidence showing that a person has to be 100% animal meat-free in order to live long and healthy. That's what our centenarians and our blue zones have shown us, that small amounts are tolerated very well, or we adapt to it very well. But there's certainly no requirement for it.

And the more animal protein there is in your diet, the higher and higher risks that you will have of developing chronic diseases and things like brain fog and aches and pains and all those things as well.

[Kevin]
Right. And it sounds like the long and the short of it is if an average human only needs a few ounces of protein from any source, and even if you're getting half of it from plant-based, that's still like maybe one to one and a half ounces that you should be getting from animal sources, which is still far, far, far less than what the average person does now, I think, given, again, given portion sizes and just the information that's out there in the culture about the amount of protein you need. Like, to me, that's the huge takeaway that we are eating way too much. And even if you don't go plant-based, it sounds even just reducing your animal-based protein, even if you're 100% animal-based, but if you eat within the guidelines for your weight and activity level, you'll still be massively reducing the amount that you take in.

[Michelle]
I'm curious that this 100% animal-based and not getting too much protein.

[Kevin]
Okay.

[Michelle]
If you're not going to eat animal, what are you going to eat?

[Kevin]
Well, that's true. No, that's true. That's true.

[Michelle]
So here, actually, I think this is a great segue. Actually, I'm going to break this up just a little bit because we're going to lead into how your plant foods make up protein. But first, let me, can I tell you a joke?

Sure. I think I promised the last episode I was going to wrap.

[Kevin]
Yes, we need your joke.

[Michelle]
Because we all know that nuts and seeds are another great source of protein. So what did the pecan say to the walnut?

[Kevin]
I have no idea.

[Michelle]
We're friends because we're both nuts.

[Kevin]
That could be you and me too. That's what I thought.

[Michelle]
This made me think of you and me. Okay.

[Kevin]
So sources of plant-based.

[Michelle]
So if we go back to what I was telling you about those rat studies and the perspective that they came to this conclusion that plant proteins were incomplete. Well, we now know that that is completely untrue. Contemporary science has proven this again and again and again.

And I hear even colleagues of mine that I went to school with at Canadian School of Natural Nutrition, because we were taught this as well. We were taught that you had to combine foods in order to make complete proteins if they were from plant sources, like you had to have rice and beans, for example. But that's completely untrue.

And all you have to do is actually have a scientist that studies the plant to prove this is true. Plant proteins are complete. All plants, almost all plants, I shouldn't say all, but almost all plants contain all of the indispensable amino acids or the essential amino acids that are needed by humans.

It's just that the ratios are different. They're not in the ratio that is suitable for a rat.

[Kevin]
Well, we've established that. And of course, if it's good enough for a rat, it's definitely good enough for humans.

[Michelle]
Right. So this is where this notion came from. If you actually want to get all of the amino acid ratios up to be suitable for a rat, then you need to combine rice and beans.

But the truth is that rice would have complete protein. Beans has complete protein. It's just that their ratios will complement one another and become more similar to that of an animal protein.

But it's not necessary. Really, the truth is scientifically that if you eat a variety of plants within the same day, they will each complement the strengths and weaknesses in amino acid ratios. So a diet, and we've always said this, that it's really variety that is key, that we should have a very varied diet.

And the best way to do that is to make sure that you're following that plate, that you've got some, some, you know, good quality protein sources, primarily from plants, you've got some whole grains, and then half of your plate is fruits and vegetables. And you don't need to count anything, you don't need to weigh anything. If you just follow those proportions, rather than portions, then you will surely have no issue and eat as much as you want.

Because a nourished organism, when it isn't being tricked by, you know, things that are, you know, deceivingly calorically dense, but not nutrient dense, you won't overeat. So a diet of mixed plant foods easily, easily supplies the complete protein for humans. So let me let me actually put it to you this way.

[Kevin]
Sure.

[Michelle]
There has never, ever in North America, as far as I've ever read in the research, or as far as I've ever heard anyone that's ever speaks on this subject at any scientific symposium or nutrition conference that I've been to, there has never been a case of kwashi akor outside of maybe late stage cancer patients, or severe, severe eating disorders where they're starving themselves. So kwashi akor is the medical definition of protein deficiency. And we've never treated it.

[Kevin]
Okay, thanks for that. I was about to ask you, what the hell is that? Okay.

[Michelle]
You learn about it, apparently, in medical school. And I have never been to any lecture and never read in any book or any research, any cases where doctors have ever had to treat it. Here, third world countries, perhaps, but where they just simply have food scarcity, period.

[Kevin]
Right. But again, I keep coming back. I'm just dumbfounded by the actual amount of protein that you need.

And it seems it would be almost impossible if you eat food. I mean, if you do actually eat. And as you say, if you're not starving yourself, or you're actually lacking food for some reason, it seems almost impossible that you couldn't possibly get those couple of ounces of protein that you need.

[Michelle]
So if you do want to bulk up, like, let's say, you know, you have a really intense physical labor job, or you're wanting to bulk up muscle, or you are an athlete, and you have rigorous workouts. There's a great book by Matt Fraser and Robert Cheek. And they're both high performance endurance athletes.

And they have put together stories across NFL players, Olympic athletes, ultra marathoners, you name it. And they have stories and stories and stories in here of what diets those athletes used to bulk up. What these high performing athletes find is that if they choose those sources of protein in their diet, which is really encouraged until, you know, they kind of get in there with trainers, or they get enlightened, it actually causes them to get injured more easily when they're doing their race or their or their sport, particularly in the case of football players, and their recovery time is longer. So if you think about if your career literally means your income in the 10s of millions, or if you're an Olympic athlete, and you know, the 1.011 of a millisecond can mean the difference between you getting gold or silver, you're going to follow the most astute scientific research for your best performance and recovery. And you don't want to be out of the game because you're injured and recovering, right?

So, so it's really interesting to me that this is the fastest growing movement of kind of shutting the animal proteins off of the plate, and going to much more either plant exclusive or plant centered diets. So I think that's really, really interesting. But you can in this book, you can actually see what they're eating, they actually provide all of their diets and what they're doing and their story and what what how they competed in their sport before they changed and how it changed their performance.

And we've got a lot of Canadian Olympic athletes actually in the Canadian Olympic team that have won gold that are plant exclusive in how they feed their bodies to best fuel them in their sport.

[Kevin]
That's amazing. I have, I have learned so much today. This has been incredible.

Thank you so much.

[Michelle]
You're so welcome.

[Kevin]
Wonderful.

[Michelle]
It's my pleasure, my fellow nut.

[Kevin]
So speaking of nuts, I do have a joke for you. It has nothing to do with food.

[Michelle]
Okay, bring it on me.

[Kevin]
Did you hear about the claustrophobic astronaut? He just wanted a little more space.

[Michelle]
Oh my god.

[Kevin]
Sorry. I need to apologize for that one.

[Michelle]
That's actually cute. Actually, that's pretty cute.

[Kevin]
Okay, well, as always, thank you so much for your words of wisdom and your very interesting history lesson about rats and humans. I didn't realize we had this like, genetic connection with rats. But now I do, apparently.

[Michelle]
I certainly hope not. Yeah, so thank you so much for letting me go into that. And I really encourage everybody to look into T.

Colin Campbell and the China study really is he's kind of my hero. That really started everything for me. And he's a true luminary in nutrition, literature and science.

And we stand on his shoulders. It's changed a lot.

[Kevin]
It sounds fascinating. I know I'm going to search out that book. It sounds incredible.

[Michelle]
Oh, you know what? There's a great documentary you can watch too if you can find it. It used to be on Netflix, but it's not there anymore.

[Kevin]
Oh, good. It saves me from reading.

[Michelle]
If you can download it, it's Forks Over Knives. A lot of people have heard of it. But Forks Over Knives is based on the China study.

And there's actually tons of integrative medicine physicians that change their practice based on that film. That film led them to the research, which led them to the book. And they've changed their practice.

So yeah, so it's not just me.

[Kevin]
Excellent. Well, we'll put some references for the books and that film in the liner notes for anyone who's interested in checking it out and reading these and or watching these if you're like me and you're too lazy to read. Yeah.

So thank you, Michelle. And we will be talking to you in a few weeks.

[Michelle]
Thanks, Kevin. Be real, everyone.

[Kevin]
Bye.