[Kevin] (0:04 - 0:21)
Microbes, bugs, greeblies, they come by so many names, and they are all over you. Hey, and welcome back, assuming you're still listening after that intro. How you doing, Michelle?

[Michelle] (0:22 - 0:23)
I'm doing great, Kev, how are you?

[Kevin] (0:23 - 0:33)
Not too bad. A little icked out when I started doing a bit of research on this episode and what we're going to be talking about. I don't know when you...

[Michelle] (0:33 - 0:36)
Oh, microbes get a bad rap, they're the best.

[Kevin] (0:36 - 0:41)
Oh, I don't know. Just never do an image search on like what's all over your body.

[Michelle] (0:42 - 0:44)
Bacteroides? Did you look at bacteroides?

[Kevin] (0:44 - 0:57)
No, I don't want to after that. Just keep it in your stomach and I'll be fine. I don't want anything anywhere else just in my stomach.

So thank you for rejoining us. This is Nutrition for Noobs. I'm Kevin.

[Michelle] (0:58 - 0:58)
I'm Michelle.

[Kevin] (0:59 - 1:08)
And today we're going to be talking about gut bacteria. Or actually, I don't know, is bacteria the right word to use or is there a better term?

[Michelle] (1:08 - 1:09)
Microbes.

[Kevin] (1:09 - 1:09)
Microbes.

[Michelle] (1:09 - 1:11)
Your microbial diversity.

[Kevin] (1:12 - 2:06)
That sounds very sophisticated. Well, I have some wonderful microbial diversity, thank you very much. Okay.

Okay, so, you know, I have to say I'm kind of fascinated when I learn about all the wildlife that's apparently all over our bodies. We have a massive ecosystem and if you're healthy, everything's balanced and you don't even know about it. We've got teeny tiny predators and teeny tiny prey living out life and death dramas every moment of our lives on every part of your body.

Basically, you're planet Earth in miniature. Right now, there are tiny microbes dreaming of building tiny spaceships to explore the universe outside of planet Kevin. Is this getting too bizarre?

[Michelle] (2:06 - 2:08)
I like planet Kevin, continue.

[Kevin] (2:11 - 2:46)
And just like the Earth, if things get out of balance in our ecosystem, the human body equivalent of coral bleaching or a species extinction, things can go haywire. So today we're going to ignore the rest of your planet body and we're just going to focus on the continent or maybe I should say the ocean of the gut. So think small, think really, really small and let's go into your stomach and your digestive tract and see what's in there.

So, Michelle.

[Michelle] (2:47 - 2:47)
Yes, Kevin.

[Kevin] (2:48 - 2:52)
First off, what the heck is microbial diversity?

[Michelle] (2:53 - 3:26)
Microbial diversity. And the first thing I want to do, I just want to correct you just a little wee bit. It's not just our gut.

We have, so what we call the microbiome are actually microbiomes. We actually have some in our mouth, on our skin, in our organs, around our organs, in our gut. You know, really, we are actually more microbial cells than we are human cells.

So we are mostly microbial.

[Kevin] (3:26 - 3:27)
Oh, I didn't know that.

[Michelle] (3:27 - 4:04)
It is critical, actually, for not only our symbiosis of all of the processes in our body, in our mind, but it is also our relationship with everything around us, with the earth, with the air, with the dirt, with the trees. We are part of planet earth and we share and exchange microbes with where we are, our environment, as well as what we eat. It's really fascinating.

It's not gross at all. It's beautiful.

[Kevin] (4:05 - 4:26)
I'm sure there's beauty in the bizarre grossness of it. So it's really not just your stomach. Because I always think of, you know, those little psylli in your stomach or whatever.

So it's really more than that. It's really all over your body that all the microbes are connected. Truly like an ecosystem.

[Michelle] (4:26 - 4:39)
It really, really is. So like our intestine, which is what most people are thinking of, it hosts, like just in our intestine, it hosts about a hundred trillion bacteria of 400 different species.

[Kevin] (4:40 - 4:41)
That's a whole lot of zeros.

[Michelle] (4:42 - 5:11)
It is. And the balance of those species change according to your diet. So your current microbial diversity is based on your current diet.

But if you change your diet, then your microbial diversity in those species, like the older species, let's say you stop eating tons of sugar. So the species that thrive on that sugar, they will start to die off and you will populate more healthy species.

[Kevin] (5:12 - 5:17)
The sugar microbes are the hyperactive ones. They're jumping all over the place. And then they crash.

[Michelle] (5:17 - 5:18)
They all have ADHD.

[Kevin] (5:18 - 5:19)
Yeah, exactly.

[Michelle] (5:20 - 6:37)
But then also the same is true of our, you know, whether you have, you know, a very plant forward diet or if you have a very animal food forward diet, this balance of species on and in your body is going to change. And you know what's fascinating? The gut microbiome starts to respond to that change within 24 hours.

Really? Yeah, within 48 hours it starts to populate. Anybody that has ever, and we've all done it, anybody that has ever cut out sugar or cut out gluten at some point has noticed that they have intense, intense cravings in the first few days.

And then if they stick, if they manage to stick to it, you'll reflect back and you go, you know, that's weird. That wasn't as hard as I thought. I don't crave sugar anymore.

I'm not craving bread anymore. And that's because the species that, you know, are thriving on those foods initially scream for their own survival. And that's why you have intense, intense cravings for it.

And then once they die off, then they repopulate with other species. And then you find that your body is no longer missing them. Doesn't mean they won't taste yummy the next time you eat it.

[Kevin] (6:38 - 6:40)
Right. They're gone, but not forgotten.

[Michelle] (6:40 - 6:49)
And you know, that's how nature is, right? Like any species is going to fight for its own survival. And microbes are living.

So that's all that's happening there.

[Kevin] (6:50 - 6:53)
They want that sugar. Give them that donut.

[Michelle] (6:54 - 7:08)
They want that sugar or they want that bacon or they want that cheese. Let's let cheese aside. Cheese is different because it's also sending a drug to our brain, which really is not fair.

That's not fighting fair.

[Kevin] (7:08 - 7:13)
That sounds like a whole other episode. I don't know. I didn't know about cheese drugs.

[Michelle] (7:13 - 7:22)
It is. So we have really, our goal should be to get more of the good guys and less of the bad guys. So what do I mean by bad guys?

Is that going to be your question?

[Kevin] (7:22 - 7:24)
What do you mean by bad guys, Michelle?

[Michelle] (7:25 - 7:58)
Well, I'm glad you asked, Kevin. What I mean by bad guys, I mean those bacterial species that contribute to disease states. And they produce these toxic compounds that, you know, lead to us not feeling well or deteriorating our health.

And those come from processed foods and junk foods. Foods that are very high in sugar, salt and fat, as well as animal based foods. Sorry.

[Kevin] (7:59 - 8:04)
And for more on that, you should listen to our previous episode all about proteins. But continue.

[Michelle] (8:04 - 8:25)
So there is good news. Just one month on a plant forward or a more plant centered diet has been proven in studies to increase that, you know, beneficial symbiosis and the decrease in bad bacteria. And more importantly, intestinal inflammation.

So it doesn't take very long.

[Kevin] (8:26 - 8:47)
And it would just happen. And this just happens naturally. If you cut out certain foods, those nasty species will just naturally die out after fighting for that last gasp of sugar.

They'll just naturally die out and the good species will repopulate to take up the space naturally.

[Michelle] (8:47 - 9:06)
Right, right. Exactly. So those microbial species that are fueled by prolonged consumption of things like animal protein.

And they produce toxins like TMAO, which light up inflammation and are the building blocks of diabetes, cardiovascular disease, kidney disease.

[Kevin] (9:06 - 9:08)
Which is different from LMAO.

[Michelle] (9:11 - 9:15)
So true. I haven't seen that in the literature, but it should be there.

[Kevin] (9:16 - 9:20)
There, I'll publish myself. There, I just made a scientific discovery.

[Michelle] (9:21 - 9:25)
You know, I think that's a great book title. LMAO, not TMAO.

[Kevin] (9:26 - 9:27)
Write it down. Copyright that.

[Michelle] (9:28 - 9:41)
Basically, you want to populate your body's microbiome with more of those good guys and far less of the bad guys. Those unbeneficial bacteria can also be populated by chronic stress.

[Kevin] (9:42 - 9:42)
Oh.

[Michelle] (9:43 - 9:52)
Yeah, they can. That chronic and prolonged periods of stress without a break contribute to the proliferation of unbeneficial microbes.

[Kevin] (9:52 - 9:53)
That's nasty of them.

[Michelle] (9:53 - 10:53)
I know. There was actually a psychology journal I read. A psychology journal published a study that stated, Additionally, stress and depression can reshape the gut's bacteria composition through stress hormones, inflammation, and autonomic alterations.

And in turn, gut bacteria will release metabolites, toxins, and neurohormones that will alter not only our eating behavior, but our mood. So some bacterial species may actually encourage dysregulated eating. The gut bacteria may also upregulate stress responsiveness and actually heighten our risk for depression.

So sometimes it's about the food and sometimes it's not about the food. So it's a really important reminder that the rest of our lifestyle is really, really important and determines not only the shape of our health, but the shape of our microbial diversity.

[Kevin] (10:54 - 11:35)
That's interesting. I had no idea about that. Which actually brings me to a point.

So especially if non-food events can adjust your balance, like stress events or something like that. You often hear about, you know, or you see commercials for like, you know, yogurt with, you know, natural bacterium. And they have these really long, long, long names that are like 25 letters long.

And that promotes good health and all that. Or else pills with like, you know, 100 million different microbes of blah, blah, blah. Do those make a difference?

Can those help? Or is it just marketing?

[Michelle] (11:36 - 11:37)
Sadly, it's pretty much marketing.

[Kevin] (11:37 - 11:40)
Oh, those marketers. Damn you, marketers!

[Michelle] (11:41 - 12:16)
There's not enough in a yogurt. So I guess any amount of probiotic consumption is obviously going to be somewhat beneficial, but it's very, very small ways. Like so the average yogurt product can range.

So the quality is key here, too. But it can range from 90 billion to 500 billion, whatever they call those colony forming units or something, in a yogurt. But we have 100 trillion requirements.

[Kevin] (12:16 - 12:18)
I was going to say, that seems like a lot.

[Michelle] (12:18 - 12:43)
Just in our intestine alone. But moreover, what I've learned, some of that isn't going to, when we're ingesting it, rather than our body is making it and populating it and they're forming based on the foods that we eat. And if you're actually swallowing those microbes, they may not survive your hydrochloric acid, your stomach acid.

[Kevin] (12:44 - 12:50)
Oh, okay. Oh, because they live, because they would naturally live in your intestines, which is after the stomach?

[Michelle] (12:51 - 12:51)
Yeah.

[Kevin] (12:52 - 12:53)
Oh, that makes sense.

[Michelle] (12:54 - 12:56)
Exactly. You don't want stomach acid to go down there.

[Kevin] (12:56 - 12:57)
No, no, no, no.

[Michelle] (12:57 - 12:57)
Exactly.

[Kevin] (12:58 - 13:04)
So they can't necessarily survive the regular digestive tract.

[Michelle] (13:04 - 14:27)
So there's not enough. There's also problematic animal protein in those products. And it may not even, what little there is, may not survive your actual hydrochloric acid.

But then we have this culture of taking probiotic supplements. Probiotics are really expensive, Kevin. And they're more expensive based on the more species that they have in them.

So if you were to go to the probiotic section in a nutrition store, you'd find 10 billion, 15 billion, 20 billion, 30 billion, 40 billion, 5 billion. And there's women's formulas and men formulas. And we used to, in my profession, we used to say, you know, if you've got somebody that's really got gastrointestinal issues, that, you know, start them right off at like 50 billion, like go nuclear.

But now we know, like, with this, even with this gut injury, on top of all of the other sort of hesitations of whether or not it's going to be effective, it's just going to go right through them. Like, the capsule is going to go right through them. Like, they're maybe not even going to break down the capsule.

So they will actually recommend starting with, or they might, it might break down some of it, but not, they won't be getting like those 50 billion species.

[Kevin] (14:27 - 14:36)
Which is already, it sounds like a drop in the ocean because 50 billion versus 100 trillion is like a very small percentage still.

[Michelle] (14:37 - 16:24)
It is. So, so they will for very, very sick people recommend like low dose probiotics that are less expensive to in addition to their other dietary and lifestyle interventions, and then build it from there. And, and, and that that's what I've heard of as a, as a practice that that they use in some cases.

So what, with that bit of research, oh, yeah, the other thing was that they weren't even sure when you're taking probiotic supplements every day. If it isn't it like if you were to stop taking them, it's not like it actually beneficially builds species because probiotic is not food for microbes, fiber is. So it's really the key is to, as Will Bolshevitz would say, be fiber fueled.

And that's a great book. Robin Chutkan is another fantastic gastroenterologist in that space that I've learned so much from. And she's just lovely to listen to.

Both her and Dr. Dr. B are great people. And they're, you know, pervasive on YouTube and whatnot, nowadays, as well as great books. But you want to be eating enough fiber in your diet and the fiber is going to fuel the microbes.

And what I've learned from them is you don't need all those products. What you need to do is eat more plants and more diversity of plants. When you increase the diversity in your diet, it will automatically increase the diversity in your gut.

And by the way, those are the same foods that you need to eat to repair a damaged gut. So it's kind of, you know, why spend $100 on a probiotic supplement that may or may not have any beneficial impact, especially over the long term, and spend that money on food.

[Kevin] (16:24 - 16:47)
Right, exactly. Especially if only possibly a small percentage of the microbes within that capsule are actually going to make it to your gut, like where they should be. What about foods that are microbe intense?

Like I've heard about things like kimchi, like certain fermented foods. Like, is that a better option?

[Michelle] (16:48 - 17:14)
Yeah, those foods are great. Whenever it comes into your body in the form of food, then your body's going to know what to do with it. And that's one thing a lot of these ancient cultures and centenarian societies and blue zones have in common is that they often, those cultures have an aspect of incorporating fermented foods into their diet regularly.

Like you said, kimchi.

[Kevin] (17:14 - 17:18)
I love my kimchi, let me tell you.

[Michelle] (17:18 - 18:28)
And sauerkraut and pickling when the pickling is more than just putting dill in a jar and it's making more fermenting. Yeah, then all of those foods are part of, you know, our history in this culture, in Canada, as well as in other cultures. And that there's a good reason why they knew for whatever reason when they ate those foods, they felt better.

So those are fantastic. Even kombucha, a certain, you know, good quality. And I have to emphasize good quality kombucha because a lot of the kombuchas on the market really aren't as beneficial to the gut as we might believe.

Or they're very, very high in sugar content, which again will erode any benefit that you may have. But there certainly are a lot of great kombucha brands out there. You just need to do your research.

But I would still, you know, it would be sort of a treat, a food for me to have. I enjoy having a nice, well-made kombucha once in a while. Or, you know, I will say making my own, but that's actually a lie.

I think I did it once.

[Kevin] (18:29 - 18:32)
Ah, the truth comes out now.

[Michelle] (18:32 - 18:41)
But I have great, great friends that have Culture Shock Kombucha Company. And so I drink theirs when I drink kombucha.

[Kevin] (18:41 - 18:56)
I have seen some videos on how to make kombucha super easily. And it's like 20 minutes into the video. It's like, oh, forget it.

There's no way in hell I'm going to be doing this. Like too much can go wrong. And it's very complicated.

[Michelle] (18:57 - 19:02)
A lot of people enjoy it. And a lot of people do it regularly. And hats off to them.

But I'm not one of those people.

[Kevin] (19:02 - 19:29)
Me neither. Me neither. Trust me.

So how do you know if your microbial diversity is diverse enough? Like basically, how would someone know if they, like without doing tests, and I know that, you know, there are tests you can do, but just generally have like a healthy gut biome or not? Or is there a way?

[Michelle] (19:29 - 19:36)
Yeah, well, you know, you can get your stool tested. That's the new thing now is that everybody's getting their stool tested.

[Kevin] (19:36 - 19:41)
Oh, did I miss out on this trend? Oh, was that a TikTok trend? Test your stool?

[Michelle] (19:42 - 21:14)
Certainly, if you have very severe, you know, gastrointestinal disease, then your GI doc would probably do that. For the average person, I think the best, it's kind of like anything to do with health, is you can go by how much better you start to feel. And I think it will be apparent.

I also recently, my half brother and his family, assisted them with diet transition. And I think one of the first ways you can tell, well, when you switch to this way of eating, the first way you can tell that you don't have a very good microbial diversity is the intense amount of flagellants that you end up getting. And that's normal, right?

And that's actually, sadly, that's one of the reasons why people will start to make the beneficial change and then they will back off. Because they get, they're like, oh my gosh, I just might, you know, my spouse can't stand me or my friends can't stand me or whatever. That is a real concern.

But it's not forever, right? Like you just have to stay the course. Like you didn't get this way overnight.

Like you followed this way of eating for a matter of years or decades. And you can't expect to undo it in like one week of eating healthy. So you just kind of have to stay the course and just congratulate yourself every time you toot.

That like, yay, I'm building new species. I'm actually making my gut healthier.

[Kevin] (21:14 - 21:40)
I think that, but you know what? You have to hand it to the bad species. Because obviously they are trying to convince you and this is their like, this is their nuclear option.

It's like, okay, bring out the toxic gas. And this is how they're going to convince you. No, no, no, don't cut out the sugar.

Don't be doing that. You're not going to want that. We're going to make you toot all night.

[Michelle] (21:41 - 22:07)
Do you know what? I've actually even recommended this to clients who were concerned because they had to go to an office or a workplace, but they were really committed to making this change. There's actually a brand of underwear that you can buy that is flatulent suppressing.

It's got filters in it, built in. But hey, you know, whatever you got to do.

[Kevin] (22:07 - 22:09)
Yeah, exactly. I had no idea.

[Michelle] (22:12 - 22:16)
So I'm not done though, the ways that you will know. So you will know by how you feel.

[Kevin] (22:16 - 22:18)
By the way, I got totally distracted with the farts.

[Michelle] (22:18 - 22:18)
No, that's okay.

[Kevin] (22:19 - 22:21)
I always go down to the fart level here.

[Michelle] (22:21 - 22:24)
Well, let's go from farts to poop, shall we?

[Kevin] (22:24 - 22:27)
Oh, excellent. Oh, good. Okay.

I'll try to be quiet.

[Michelle] (22:30 - 22:51)
So that's another way that you will know. So these unbeneficial microbes are very stinky. And like, so this goes to our farts, but also our poop.

Like literally, Kevin, you've probably been waiting your whole life to hear this. But if you actually were had, you know, like a primarily plant forward diet, literally your shit won't stink. Or at least not as much.

[Kevin] (22:51 - 22:55)
That is what I need. My shit don't stink.

[Michelle] (22:56 - 24:54)
Well, you will. So you will notice changes in your stool composition because you will be eating all of this fiber. So you're going to have lots of incredible bulk for your stool.

You will actually start to probably do a much better job of cleaning out that colon, that large intestine, whenever you evacuate. I'll use that as a nicer word. Yes, thank you.

And you will feel just cleaner. You will feel lighter. And you will, like, notice that your stools are more fully formed.

This goes hand in hand with hydration, by the way. It's impossible to talk about poop and fiber without talking about water. It's really, really important.

But a lot of changes start to happen. And then you will also notice, because we have this gut-brain connection, the gut-brain connection is so profound. And, you know, what happens in our gut is really, you know, a mirror for how we're feeling in our mind, in our mood, and even in our mental health.

They've actually shown that there's been a few studies, and I wish I could quote one for you here, but I can't remember a specific study. But I know that I've read this, that changing, making these types of dietary changes can almost be just as fast and as beneficial in some cases as antidepressants. Wow.

So, yeah, because it's really, to some extent, it is these unbeneficial microbes and these toxins and these other things that are going on with our biology that are making us feel so unwell, not just physically, but also mentally and emotionally. So we have this incredible gut-brain connection through the vagus nerve. And actually a lot of people don't realize that it's something like 90% of our neurotransmitters are made in our gut.

[Kevin] (24:55 - 24:55)
Wow.

[Michelle] (24:55 - 26:04)
They're not made in our brain. So what you literally are, what you eat. And 70% of our immune system is in our gut.

So the microbial makeup will literally impact how you feel, how you think, how quickly you are able to learn something. And it's also going to determine how susceptible we are to other pathogens, like viruses and bacteria and other things that make us sick. So you will be strengthening the body, the mind, as well as your immune system when you build this microbial diversity.

So these are things that you will notice. It won't be like a lightning bolt. You won't suddenly wake up one day and be microbially diverse.

It's something that you have to build. And it's not just what we eat, Kevin. It's also our relationship with nature.

So going outside, walking in the woods around other plant diversity, and it's also not washing it off too frequently. So are you ready for me to go there?

[Kevin] (26:05 - 26:12)
Oh, I don't know. I don't know. Very likely.

Very likely. Let's not get too controversial here.

[Michelle] (26:13 - 27:04)
Well, Robert Chutkan has an expression, Dr. Robert Chutkan, who's one of the microbiome experts. She's a gastroenterologist. Her motto is live dirty, eat clean.

One of her recommendations as a gastroenterologist is quite often to tell her patients to stop bathing for a time. So you can become so obsessed with constantly showering and constantly sanitizing that you actually literally, even if you're doing all of the right things, you're washing it off, and you're not giving the body a chance to repopulate. Just because you don't like completely bathe every day doesn't mean you don't practice good hygiene.

You take care of all your bits, but you don't wash all your microbes off.

[Kevin] (27:04 - 27:10)
And maybe like using less harsh soaps could also be another.

[Michelle] (27:10 - 27:32)
Well, you could rinse in a shower without using soap. That's one thing that you could do that would be healthier is don't add any emulsifier that's going to wash them off of your skin. Think about the number of people that suffer from severe eczema and stuff like that.

They need microbes on their skin.

[Kevin] (27:33 - 27:52)
Right, right, right. So there are ways to clean. So it's not be dirty.

It's more think about how you get clean and understand that there are ways to clean yourself without necessarily being dumped in bleach and killing everything that's on your body. There's a happy medium.

[Michelle] (27:52 - 28:07)
You know, I think the global pandemic really set us back in this regard because we became even more sanitizing than we ever were because hand sanitizer like 50, 60 times a day, right?

[Kevin] (28:08 - 28:09)
That's ridiculous.

[Michelle] (28:09 - 28:39)
Like it's and that but, you know, the pandemic is over and outside, I will say this, outside of a clinical setting where you are actually dealing with the sickest of the population and you are, you know, we don't want to promote the spread of, you know, C. diff or anything like that in a hospital-based environment. So hospital-based environment accepted.

I'm talking about the everyday person, the everyday person going about your business.

[Kevin] (28:39 - 28:40)
In the grocery store, yeah.

[Michelle] (28:40 - 28:56)
Like be in your garden, walk in nature, you know, play in the dirt, run in the sprinkler, dip in the ocean and the lake and don't necessarily feel like it's so important that you have to run in and shower.

[Kevin] (28:56 - 28:57)
Right.

[Michelle] (28:57 - 29:07)
Right. And, you know, just allow that diversity to build not just in what you're eating but on your body with how you're living. But don't be nasty.

[Kevin] (29:07 - 29:59)
Don't be nasty. But appreciate that it is all connected and everything is connected and what's, I guess that's something that I'm taking away from this that I always thought that your gut biome was like in your gut and it was kind of completely separate. There was the inside and the outside.

And whereas now I understand that it is all connected because your mouth is connected and your mouth is like a direct like gaping hole into the outside world. And so obviously some of the outside world is going to go in and there's so much life inside you that you really do need to think about the whole system which includes the good actors and the bad actors. It sounds less like, you know, a little planet Earth and more like, you know, the Marvel Cinematic Universe.