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Transcript

Kevin: Hey, Michelle. How are you?

Michelle: No, Kevin. That's my line today.

Kevin: Oh, that's right. Oh, my God. See, old habits die hard. Okay.

Michelle: I know. We agreed already. Kevin. Hi, Kevin. How are you?

Kevin: Hey, Michelle. I'm amazing. I am absolutely amazing. So, I've got some news.

Michelle: Tell me what is amazing with you.

Kevin: So, I have some news and, you know, little things make me happy. So, I have a new favorite salad.

Michelle: Oh, no. Tell. Isn't that crazy? Am I going to like it?

Kevin: I think so.

Michelle: Okay.

Kevin: I mean, I'm sure you'll generally like it. I don't know if you'd actually like the flavor combination.

Michelle: Oh, why not?

Kevin: But it just, it hits my, it hits all of the sweet spots for me.

Michelle: It's got cardamom in it?

Kevin: And it tastes almost, no, no, no, no, knock this out. And it tastes like five minutes to me.

Michelle: Oh, well, I like it already. Do tell.

Kevin: So, it's simply kale.

Michelle: Love it.

Kevin: With chickpeas. Love it. And avocado.

Michelle: Nice. Do you massage the avocado on the kale?

Kevin: Yes, yes. I love that. You take half the avocado, smush it up with the kale with just a little bit of lemon juice. And that makes the kale all delicious. And it loses.

Michelle: You've got to soften kale up because it's angry lettuce. Yeah. Exactly.

Kevin: It's angry lettuce. That's a good description of it. So, you've got to get all that angry right.

Michelle: That's a repastelstin. I can't take credit for that one. That's what he says. Kale's just angry lettuce. You've got to calm it down.

Kevin: It is a good description. And then you add some pumpkin seeds. But the pièce de résistance is a great big dollop of kimchi. Oh, I love it. And it just works together. You wouldn't think though, when I first heard about it, I didn't know if everything would work together as a salad. Oh my God. It is stunning.

Michelle: That hits a lot of boxes. So, this is a recipe then? You didn't invent this?

Kevin: No, no, no, no. This is a recipe. And I've adjusted it a little bit.

Michelle: The avocado would sort of balance the pungency of the kimchi. I kind of like that.

Kevin: It just works in a little bit of a crunch with the pumpkin seeds.

Michelle: And some nuttiness with the pumpkin seeds. Yeah.

Kevin: It just works so well. So, maybe this can become a, maybe I'll post the recipe in a future episode.

Michelle: This sounds like a good one. This sounds like it's like a no-oil whole food salad. You don't need to add anything else.

Kevin: Well, you've got the, since you massage half of an avocado into the kale, that's kind of, that's all the oil you need. And then just a little bit of lemon juice to get that acidic, the vinegar side of things. But no, you need no oil at all.

Michelle: I really, really love doing that with a kale salad. Because I, and I found that, you know, it gets you more tactile with your food again, more connected with your food. You got to take your rings off and you've got to make sure.

Kevin: Push the watch up the.

Michelle: They would have been the old days. Right. And, and then you feel a lot more connected to your food too.

Kevin: And you can get a lot of frustration out. That's what I like about it.

Michelle: Did you, was it shredded by the time you were done with it?

Kevin: Let's just say it lost a lot of its anger, that lettuce. And it was very, very soft.

Michelle: The softest kale anyone has ever seen in their life.

Kevin: Exactly. It was like silk. It was so soft.

Michelle: Well, congratulations. That sounds like an awesome, awesome recipe. You're going to have to post that for the listeners for sure.

Kevin: What I love about it is it literally takes five minutes too. So long as you have your chickpeas pre cooked, then everything else comes together in no time at all.

Michelle: Or you can use a can of chickpeas if you don't have that kind of time, right? You can. Anyway, I want to, I want to talk to you. Yeah. I want to talk to you. There's a brand new study that I was kind of enamored with. It is a large crossover trial on ultra processed foods and weight loss that was published in nature medicine very, very recently, like August, 2025. This is hot off the press.

Kevin: Yeah.

Michelle: So it was a randomized trial, though. There were other meta analyses on ultra processed foods that have also been published recently along very similar lines. One in a journal called Advanced Nutrition in January of 2024. Anyway, the long and the short of this is there's a lot of these large studies coming out right now, you know, further confirming what we already know. Ultra processed foods are not good for us. That they are linked to mortality, disease risk, and also very linked to issues with weight management, et cetera. But this one particular anecdote that was highlighted in this study by the University of Washington was that consuming as little as one hot dog, which would be, you know, 50 grams of processed meat for one hot dog. If you do that once a day, it increases your risk of type two diabetes by 11 percent and colorectal cancer by 7 percent. And then just in terms of other ultra processed foods, even moderate intake of sugary drinks and trans fats will elevate your risk at any level, will elevate your risk of heart disease, which is the number one killer globally for the population. So they conclude and reconfirm in this, you know, very large meta analyses that there is no safe level of these ultra processed foods. So that just reinforces all of the global health warnings that are to minimize processed meat and minimize trans fats and minimize sugary beverages to reduce in order to reduce chronic disease risk of any chronic disease, as well as premature death. So, you know, if you were to adopt a more plant forward diet, that it can lower your chronic disease risk immediately by almost 20 percent. And so in these large meta analyses, how they come to these conclusions is by, you know, doing these, you know, large dietary trials and they use biomarkers in blood that are related to these things. And they find that even very low consumption of these ultra processed foods increase chronic disease risk at, you know, even in very, very small amounts. So they're now, you know, just continuing to reinforce that this is one of our largest dietary risks. You would think that it would be the lower levels of nutrition from people that are not having enough varied diet or enough fresh foods, things like that. But it's not that even though that is a huge contributor, it's more about just the sheer volume and prevalence and frequency of ultra processed foods specifically in our diet. And the reason, you know, kind of what this brought up for me was when they use the example in the study that it's as little as one hot dog per day. And I can think back to time when I was a kid, hot dogs literally were my favorite food. And I was a very picky eater when I was fairly small. And I would often ask my parents to make hot dogs for me all the time. It was my favorite, especially when spring rolled around and you could have them on the barbecue, like, you know, more than, you know, doing them in a frying pan. Oh, my gosh, you remember when our parents used to boil hot dogs? Oh, yes.

Kevin: I never liked hot dogs.

Michelle: Oh, it sounds so gross now, but I, you know, but that used to be very common, right? And they're cheap and they're cheap.

Kevin: It was the way to cook hot dogs.

Michelle: Yeah.

Kevin: To boil them on the stove.

Michelle: Yeah, exactly. So, but I don't think a lot of people actually really understand the magnitude of this. Are you aware, this is what I want to make the listeners aware of today. There is a whole branch of the World Health Organization called the IARC or the International Agency for Research on Cancer. So, they're part of WHO, which means World Health Organization. A lot of people know what that is. The IARC is a specialized cancer agency. And all that they do is they evaluate scientific evidence on causes of cancer that include chemicals as well as biological agents, like whether environmental or used in our food supply or agriculture or what have you, as well as food. And there are four major classifications that they use. I'm going to talk about the first two classifications in this podcast today. Okay. Because they represent a majority of the offending foods that people are eating prevalently in our diet that move us away from plant foods. And those are the foods that we need to when we look at research like these meta-analyses through the EPIC studies and whatnot. And there's a group one, which are considered to be confirmed to be carcinogenic in humans, period. End of story. If it's a group one carcinogen food or substance, there's no safe level. And then there's a group 2A. So, group two is split into A and B. There's a group 2A that is probable carcinogenic to humans. And then those are the two we're going to focus on. But then there's also a group 2B, which is possibly carcinogenic to humans, needs more study. And then there's group three, where it's not classified. It's not known, at least at this point, to be carcinogenic to humans.

Kevin: Okay.

Michelle: But group one and group 2A are the ones that really concern me. So, group one includes things like outdoor air pollution and wood dust, but also things like asbestos and lead and processed meats.

Kevin: Okay. Processed meats and lead are in the same category.

Michelle: Processed meats. So, when we're talking about processed meats, we are talking about bacon, ham, sausages, including hot dogs, frankfurters, pepperoni, salami, chorizo, deli meats, cold cuts, corned beef, jerky, canned meat, such as spam, if anybody still eats that. Any meat that is smoked, because the process of smoking introduces these carcinogens. So, smoked meats and smoked fish. Meat-based pâtés, if they happen to be cured or preserved pâtés. And the reason that these are defined as group one carcinogens is because they have a connection to colorectal cancer in particular. So, processed meat is meat that has been transformed in some way to preserve it through salting, curing, fermentation, smoking, or another process, which either is used to enhance that preservation, shelf life, et cetera, stability, or flavor. It can be used for flavor enhancing. Smoking does help to preserve the meat for a long period of time, but often it's done simply for its flavor purposes. So, it's probably also linked to stomach cancers and other cancers, but it's very, very strongly associated with colorectal cancer. And that evidence is crystal clear, and that's what has landed it on the group one list.

Kevin: Okay. So, I have a question. I have a question to clarify. So, we're talking about the process of curing or preserving the meat, which means, in my mind, and correct me if I'm wrong, but so that means it's not just sort of big food making a bazillion hot dogs in a huge factory. This would also apply to like your local artisanal sausage manufacturer. So, it's basically sausages in general, whether they're made in a massive factory by a huge conglomerate or a farmer down the street, because it's the smoking or the preserving and the adding of salt and all that that is the issue.

Michelle: If the process results in the meat containing nitrites or nitrates, the excess salt is another problem. The smoking and the curing, that's basically where it moves from being, I guess it depends if you're having your local artisanal guy do it. Is it a processed food? Is it only slightly processed or is it in this classification of ultra processed foods?

Kevin: So, it might be a little bit.

Michelle: It might be a little bit carcinogenic.

Kevin: A little bit better than your massive like factory created hot dogs, but it's still somewhere in that spectrum.

Michelle: Yeah, for sure. I'm going to come back to group one in a second, but let me just define group 2A because group 2A is also of concern to me.

Kevin: And that's the most likely carcinogenic?

Michelle: This is more of a most likely.

Kevin: Okay.

Michelle: So, the group 1 definitely has a group 1 carcinogenic status. So, then there is group 2A, which is probable carcinogen. And that includes your red meats, like your fresh red meat that is not ultra processed. So, your steak, your pork chops, your lamb roast, etc. But it's red meat. So, typically we mean steak and pork, but good clarification that that includes lamb because a lot of people wonder, does lamb fit with white meat? Does lamb fit with red meat? But it's really a red meat, right? So, that's group 2A. So, then you may ask like, so what does that mean about roasted chicken or turkey or grilled fish?

Kevin: Michelle, what does that mean for chicken or turkey or roasted fish?

Michelle: Well, I'm glad you asked that, Kevin. As it turns out, roasted chicken, turkey and grilled fish, they may have some problematic issues for other reasons. But being a group 2A carcinogen is not one of them. Yeah. So, they are not classified as carcinogenic because those meats typically don't endure any curing or processing. And they actually are lower in heme iron than the red meats are. So, really in the red meat that is not ultra processed, that it's fresh, they are still probable carcinogens due to heme iron. And the heterocyclic amines and other byproducts that come from the high temperature cooking that they have to undergo. So, part of this is inherently the food. And part of it is how you prepare the food. So, with the ultra processed, it's all about that ultra processing. When it comes to the red meat, it's partially the heme iron, but partially it's the byproducts that happen with the high heat. Once you cook it. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. So, I guess the practical takeaways from that in terms of... Eat raw meat. I don't think I would recommend that for different reasons. But there's such strong evidence of these ultra processed foods. And it's something really for our culture to get their head around. Like, if I just think about every boxed lunch that I was ever packed anywhere by my mother and going to school was like luncheon meat. So, my brothers might have been bologna. I always insisted upon salami or something else or ham sandwiches. Like, how common is that? But they are actually group one carcinogens in the same category as cigarette smoking.

Kevin: Wow. And licking lead paint.

Michelle: Right. And yeah, exactly. Are those old toys that were taken away from us because they had lead paint on them, right?

Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.

Michelle: But here, have this hot dog.

Kevin: Yeah, yeah. For sure. Have three.

Michelle: Or processed burgers, right? Sausages with your eggs in the morning or whatever. They are group one carcinogens. They're a strong evidence of colorectal cancer risk and other cancers. They contain these harmful nitrates, preservatives, and nitroso compounds that they should be avoided. There's considered to be no safe level consumption.

Kevin: So, Michelle, I have a quick question for you. Since all the group one ultra-processed food is in the same category as, for instance, lead, do the nitrates and all the bad parts of the ultra-processed food stay in your body the same way that lead does?

Michelle: No. Lead is sequestered to the bone. And that's, you know, we talked about that in the bone broth episode. That's one of the things that's so very risky about environment. Lead's more of an environmental risk. Right. Or rice and things like that, where it's very good at sequestering lead as well. But nitrates, they don't stick around in the body in the same way.

Kevin: So, if you ate a lot as a kid, you're not carrying them around?

Michelle: They would be excreted in some way, probably your urine, et cetera. But, you know, they do their damage on their way out, right? Like in your stomach, in your kidneys. It's really more of a colorectal, like large intestine.

Kevin: Right. As it's passing through, that's the damage that it's doing.

Michelle: Yeah. We're not supposed to consume these things.

Kevin: Right.

Michelle: Like they're not part of our natural diet.

Kevin: Where were you when I was six years old and eating macaroni meat?

Michelle: Oh, I was probably eating hot dogs.

Kevin: Yeah, exactly. And loving it. Having second servings.

Michelle: Yeah. Or bacon. I mean, I think, honestly, I think two of my favorite foods were hot dogs and bacon. And, you know, we didn't know what we didn't know.

Kevin: Of course. Of course. It's an ever evolving. I mean, as you said, this study is hot off the press from like last month. So, we're constantly learning new things.

Michelle: This refreshing of the study, I think this classification by the IARC was 2019, if I'm not mistaken. I might be wrong.

Kevin: It's still only six years or so. Like it's still fairly, in our lifetime, it's still very, very recent history.

Michelle: Well, just think about, just think about, even in your teen years, early 20 years, like I can think about these were all my major diet. Bacon, ham, sausage, deli meat, jerky.

Kevin: Yeah.

Michelle: Yeah. It's like just crazy. And then the red meats too. Like a lot of people don't want to hear that. But those are the two highest classifications for cancer risk by the IARC.

Kevin: Right. Okay. Interesting.

Michelle: But interestingly enough, so then the question became for me, because I don't eat those foods anymore, I do occasionally enjoy a veggie dog if it's summer. And I, you know, we don't typically barbecue them, but sometime we go past the nice guy with the cart, you know, and you just kind of want to feel it's summer and go up and get a hot dog. Veggie dogs, as it turns out, do not carry this classification as a meat-based hot dog. Now, they're still considered a processed food. And, you know, they probably, you know, they are heavily processed. They still probably contain too much sodium and other additives, but not associated with cancer risk in the same way. Right. So they are not a healthy alternative, but they are less harmful. They are less harmful.

Kevin: Yes.

Michelle: For sure. So if you want to have a hot dog, choose a good quality veggie dog. And you can also look for low sodium, you know, and look for whole food-based brands. There's more and more of those available.

Kevin: Right.

Michelle: Now, just to provide more clarification, if you're having like chicken and turkey as a cold cut, so it is in that luncheon meat type of delivery where it has nitrates and nitrites and preservatives, they fall under the exact same carcinogenic category.

Kevin: It's been ultra processed.

Michelle: Right. But otherwise, you know, roasted chicken and turkey are not.

Kevin: Right. Right.

Michelle: But if you were to have, say, roasted beef and roasted pork and slice it, it would fall under that 2A category.

Kevin: Correct.

Michelle: Right. So but your chicken and turkey in these terms is a safer alternative.

Kevin: Yeah. So just slice chicken breast really thinly and that becomes your sandwich meat.

Michelle: Yeah.

Kevin: If you're dying for, you know, if you're dying.

Michelle: If you really want to do that, for sure. Now, there are other problematic issues with those foods, but they're certainly a much safer alternative. And as you know, there is no requirement to be 100 percent whole food plant based. What our goal here is to eliminate as much as possible these ultra processed foods from our diet and get closer to whole natural foods and reduce our risk.

Kevin: Exactly.

Michelle: So roasted poultry is different because roasting or baking a whole chicken or a turkey does not involve curing. It does not involve smoking, fermenting or additive of these nitrates and nitrites.

Kevin: Well, I don't know. Have you seen some of these videos of what people do for their Thanksgiving turkeys? There are some weird things happening to birds.

Michelle: There are people. I know it's very popular to have a smoker now, isn't it? It's very popular.

Kevin: Smoker and deep fried. And like there is weird stuff happening.

Michelle: Holy cow. I know. It's almost like food entertainment. Like they turn it into a whole thing.

Kevin: It is. You know, so if you're going to do that, you know, buyer beware.

Michelle: Yeah. The other thing to shine a light on is I should say like these like naturally like roasting doesn't confer the same level of harm unless it becomes charred. Like so like barbecuing or roasting where it becomes like charred or burnt, then then charring or burning the skin of the animal or the outer surface of the meat does very much contain carcinogenic compounds like these heterocyclic amines and other harmful byproducts of that charring and that burning that are very, very clearly carcinogenic.

Kevin: Okay.

Michelle: So but that comes from lots of extremely high temperature cooking. And, you know, from that burning specifically, not from the meat itself, if you were to just roast it, not to that point.

Kevin: Okay. So stay away from jerk chicken is what you're saying.

Michelle: Yeah. So if you want to include some of these meats in your diet, then, you know, choose home roasted, like you said, and unprocessed cuts, if you, and it would be healthier than using packaged cold cuts, you know, slices of freshly roasted chicken or slices of turkey breast that are not considered processed meats, they don't carry the same risk, but avoid all processed meats. You know, that would include the pepperoni on your pizza, right?

Kevin: Like if you really start to think about it, I don't like pepperoni on my pizza, so it's all good.

Michelle: I used to love it, but yeah, but you can have a great veggie pizza with pineapple and onions and olives.

Kevin: Artichoke.

Michelle: Oh, I've never had artichoke on my pizza.

Kevin: You've never had artichoke hearts on your pizza?

Michelle: No.

Kevin: No, I haven't. Oh, so delicious. So, so, so delicious. You know what I'm going to miss from group two? No, I guess it's group one. There's one food that's in group one that's a bit of my weakness. I love a good quality smoked salmon.

Michelle: I knew you were going to say smoked salmon. I knew that was going to be it.

Kevin: I love my smoked salmon. If it's good, there's one particular provider here in Toronto that does it so well, and it's really, really good quality and it's delicious. I don't have it all the time, but oh my God, it's so good, and that's going to be tough.

Michelle: Can you like cedar blanket instead or do something that's a little bit less?

Kevin: Well, the thing is, smoked salmon is such a very specific flavor.

Michelle: Well, then don't have it very often.

Kevin: Yeah, no, that's the thing. I mean, I don't have it that often, but the thing is, now it's going to be in my mind. It's like, oh God, this is a cancer-causing, this is known to cause cancer. Okay.

Michelle: Well, let me tell you the actual guidance from World Cancer Research Fund. Okay. So when we talk about quantities of these things. Yes. So let's start with the red meat guidance. That's usually people's first question. Okay. How much steak can I have?

Kevin: Yes. How much can I bend the rules?

Michelle: So their guidance, this would be in the 2A category, 350 to 500 grams per week. So that would amount to 12 to 18 ounces or equaling three servings. That's in my opinion, knowing that it's in 2A, that would still be a lot in my opinion. However, I guess you're realistically talking about three, four ounce servings, in order to land on 12, as high as 18. But their guidance is to avoid it if you can, or to rarely eat it. So to me, those three servings is still too much. But if you're starting from eating much more than that, then definitely reducing to that is a great place to start.

Kevin: It's interesting because just listening to these amounts, like if you go to an average steakhouse, you know, I don't go often, but if I go to a steakhouse, my issue is always, I can't find a small enough cut. Because the sizes tend to be... Now it seems eight ounces. They're massive. Eight ounces is like the minimum.

Michelle: I know. Absolute minimum.

Kevin: And me, I want like six or less. I just want to taste so often, it ends up that my partner and I just end up splitting one. And I have like a corner of his because I really don't want, I don't want eight ounces of steak, let alone 12. And sometimes you get 14, like some of these, like porterhouse cuts and all that are huge. So it's just interesting to hear that at these steak restaurants, be aware if you go there, because that could be your entire week's worth of steak.

Michelle: Or more.

Kevin: Or more.

Michelle: Or more. Isn't there like advertised sometimes this 120 ounce steak?

Kevin: Sometimes they, I mean, but those aren't, those aren't very common. That's, yeah. I mean, if you're, if you're doing that, I don't think you're listening to our podcast.

Michelle: But you know, not all of the dietary guidelines agree with this World Cancer Research Fund. Like the world, the IARC, who set this to a classification in the first place, they would say avoid our limit and no safe level is what they would say.

Kevin: Right.

Michelle: So it's kind of interesting, right? Because like they are also researching on behalf of cancer, but they have like kind of less tolerance for it than WCRF. And then there's the American Heart Association, where their guidance is if you are going to eat red meat, choose lean cuts and keep your portions small. They don't actually define the number of ounces for small. And say, but lean more towards poultry and fish if you are. And keep in mind their customer is probably, or their audience is a, you know, heart disease, either prevention or heart disease management audience. So you've already, you're already at risk in some way, probably if you're following American Heart Association guidelines. And then in the UK, their National Health Service, their dietary guideline is limit red and processed meats to less than 70 grams a day. So that's higher. Yeah. And the U.S. Dietary Guideline, which is their more recent one since 2020, says that there is no fixed limit that they have been willing to define on red meat, but they recommend people shift towards more plant proteins. So in practical terms, it's kind of more along that first one that we read up to a modest amount of three servings per week would be the starting point. And then if you can manage to decrease it more than that and get closer to where WHO recommends is probably safer given the severity of the rating.

Kevin: Right.

Michelle: And then the processed or ultra processed foods that were in the, you know, the group one carcinogen category, they say treat it as occasional foods at best and not staples. Meaning don't put these things in your cart regularly.

Kevin: Yeah, yeah.

Michelle: You know, if you're going to have a big brunch and you want to cook bacon, sure. Right. But but you shouldn't be having bacon and eggs, you know, multiple times a week or every every day. So in the guidance, there's some cooking tips for what people can do to kind of continue to lower their risk while they're, you know, enjoying some animal based foods in their diet.

Kevin: Yeah.

Michelle: Use lower temperature cooking. OK. So using slow roasting, stewing, baking.

Kevin: Yeah.

Michelle: More than more than frying and deep frying and smoking, et cetera. And that will help to reduce these HCA and PAHs.

Kevin: OK.

Michelle: And you can always trim your meat, like trim the fat trim. If you do happen to get some charred bits, trim those off and don't eat them. And they say that actually marinating your meat before grilling it can help to reduce the carcinogen formation during cooking.

Kevin: OK.

Michelle: So I thought that was a nice tip because a lot of people really enjoy marinating their meat.

Kevin: Exactly. Exactly. So kill two birds with one stone. It tastes better. And if you can reduce a bit of the carcinogens, all the better.

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. So and then further like shifting just more of your plate towards plant proteins. So trying to consume if you're going to consume some animal foods, lean towards fish and poultry instead of the steak and the pork. Yeah, exactly. I would be more towards lean towards the legumes. Right. And we know we we know that legumes are very, very strongly recommended for cancer prevention so that we know that that's an extremely safe bet. Really great for satiety. Really great source of protein. Really great for a prebiotic food for your microbiome. All those little good guys. And then, you know, they have a nice little chart here. It sometimes helps for people to think in terms of green light, yellow light, red light. So green light, lower risk, safer food examples would be, as we said, chicken, turkey, fish, legumes, tofu, tempeh, and all minimally processed plant proteins. And, you know, those were are not associated at all with colorectal cancer. Right. And emphasizing always when it comes to plant based foods, variety is key. Yellow light or moderate risk would be those fresh red meats, the beef, pork, lamb, goat, veal. Keep those between 350 to 500 grams per week or around three servings. And high risk category, the red light foods would be all those processed meats, bacon, ham, hot dog, sausage, deli meats, cured or smoked meats. Rarely or never. Right. Unless you favor increasing your risk of colorectal cancer and other cancers.

Kevin: I do, I do. And just to clarify, in the yellow category, I would assume would also be the highly processed vegan alternatives to like where would they would they be in yellow because of the salt and such or?

Michelle: You know, that's a yeah, I would I would put them in the in the yellow category saying have something like they're really great transition foods more than anything. While you're moving out of the red foods.

Kevin: Yeah.

Michelle: Then then then include some of those or even as you know, like they're more occasional, not every day. But but they're certainly a better alternative and they're certainly way favorable for the environmental impact as well, which is is not to be ignored. Right. But yeah, I mean, and I don't include tofu in that category, by the way, because tofu is really safe. Like you should consider I mean, it is processed like but I'd say it's minimally processed because obviously it doesn't look like a soybean anymore. But it certainly doesn't doesn't contain any of these other all the other compounds in the process.

Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michelle: As opposed to a heavily processed like ultra processed food that's made that's soy based, right? Like a soy based sausage or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And salt probably being one of the one of the biggest problems with those foods.

Kevin: Exactly.

Michelle: And fat.

Kevin: Yes.

Michelle: Yeah. So I just I mean, I'm not going into the other the other categories because, you know, those are kind of the most egregious food examples. And I just wanted to shine a light on that because I I just think we hear a lot or there's a lot of media or a lot of airplay now even in social media about ultra processed foods. I don't think that's a surprise to anybody. I think everybody conceptually understands that. But when you make it real, like especially summertime or barbecuing, there's lots of picnics. There's lots of social gatherings. Yeah, there's lots of street fairs and art fairs and the farmers markets.

Kevin: It surrounds you.

Michelle: And I think we often forget in practical terms, like whenever we're out enjoying those things and we're eating like even packing our kids lunches that we we should be a little bit more down to earth with our food preparation if we really are concerned about what we're feeding our kids. And, you know, I'm no different. When I was a young mom, I was I was packing those luncheon meats and, you know, volunteering at hot dog day and pizza day and all those things for my kids school.

Kevin: It's easy and convenient and it's what everyone else is eating. OK, well, thank you for sharing all this, Michelle. This has been very eye opening. And I certainly heard and I think, as you said, in the media, this notion of ultra processed food is around. But it really helps to have the nuts and bolts of what it is, why it's bad, what alternatives there are, and some of the facts about how much you should or shouldn't have. So thank you. This has been very helpful for me. And I will stay away from macaroni meat for the rest of my life.

Michelle: Macaroni meat, your bologna, your sliced ham, your sliced salami, like all of it.

Kevin: It's just macaroni meat. That was the only thing I ate for like eight or ten years of school. I can only imagine what my insides look like. I don't want to. It looks like my insides look like a big macaroni meat loaf.

Michelle: I wanted to bring this up and make it real because for some of us, like even colorectal cancer risk, we might think, oh, that's not a big deal. I'm not really at risk for that. We can get complacent with our health. But it's actually one of the top cancers worldwide right now. And in the United States and Canada's usually... Well, as I think I've said before, in the United States, the number one cause of death is still heart disease. But for Canada, it's cancer. So our colorectal cancer risk is probably higher than the U.S., not lower. It's the third most commonly diagnosed cancer in the United States. So it's a very, very big deal. And I think that's because of the prevalence of these things in our food supply and the prevalence of it in our diet. Anyway, sorry to be a downer.

Kevin: No, this is good. This is good information that we need. I mean, this is all about knowledge is power and that helps people make decisions. And it's all about making decisions and essentially voting with your wallet and making educated decisions and buying things that are good for you and good for the planet.

Michelle: Yeah, and teaching our kids to value the healthy foods and not to glorify the unhealthy ones.

Kevin: Exactly. 100%. So thank you, Michelle.

Michelle: And you're welcome.

Kevin: As always, it's time for the dad joke to end on a lighter note. OK, so is it a good one? It's a good one. OK. They're all good. What do you mean, is it a good one? They're all good, Michelle.

Michelle: Are they?

Kevin: OK, let's not go there because you're going to break my heart.

Michelle: Oh, I'm just teasing you. You know, I love the dad jokes, even the bad ones.

Kevin: But there are no bad ones, I just said. OK, so why did the man quit his job at the shoe recycling plant?

Michelle: Oh, why did the man quit his job at the shoe recycling plant, Kevin?

Kevin: It was soul destroying.

Michelle: Oh, my.

Kevin: OK, should we have another one? A bonus, a second one? Sure. OK, what happened with the kidnapping at the local school? I don't know. What did happen? It was fine. He woke up. It took me a minute to get that one. It's like, what? That was cute. If you didn't get it, just go back and listen to it again.

Michelle: These are very kid friendly jokes.

Kevin: They are, yes. I love this. These are the best jokes. And as a reminder, if the listeners aren't aware, these jokes come from a box of dad jokes that Michelle gave me.

Michelle: That's right. It's technically my fault, everyone.

Kevin: Yes, exactly. So blame Michelle. If you have any issues, email Michelle specifically at n-4-n-o-o-b-s at gmail.com or you can message us at facebook at facebook.com slash nutrition for noobs and reach out and let us know what you love about the episodes, specifically the dad jokes, or if you want to share any dad jokes or have any suggestions for episodes or any questions for Michelle.

Michelle: Yeah, ask a question. I love answering your questions.

Kevin: Yeah, Michelle loves listener questions. She's always happy when we can do a listener question episode.

Michelle: I do, because, you know, it's been a while since I was a noob.

Kevin: Exactly. So it brings back your noobness.

Michelle: Sometimes I'm like, oh yeah, other people don't know that.

Kevin: Yeah, there's a lot we don't know, Michelle. There's a lot. You can impart so much to us.

Michelle: And I learn every single day. Every time I get to dive into one of these things, even if my own curiosity gets piqued, because I'll be like, huh, well, that's interesting. So if that's true, then is this true? And if that's true, then is this true? And what does that mean if it was? Because it's just a glorious process of discovery every single time. I love it.

Kevin: And listeners, I will attest that Michelle goes down a lot of rabbit holes.

Michelle: Oh yeah, he reigns me in all the time.

Kevin: Really researches this, and I can see she's got like 17 tabs on her screen open with all the studies and all the facts and figures just at her fingertips. And it's like, wow, she's the most prepared person I know.

Michelle: It's very fun.

Kevin: Yes, it is. So thank you, Michelle. Thank you.

Michelle: Until next time.

Kevin: Eat your greens.

Michelle: And be real, everyone.

Kevin: You can subscribe to the podcast on whatever your favorite platform might be. Also, please consider leaving a review or telling your friends. That's the best way to spread the word. We'll see you next time with another interesting topic. The views and opinions expressed on nutrition for noobs are those of the hosts. It is not intended to be a substitute for medical, nutritional, or health advice. Listeners should seek a personal consultation with a qualified practitioner. If they have any concerns or before commencing any actions mentioned in the podcast.