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Transcript

Kevin: Hey, Michelle, I've got some kind of interesting news. Oh, do tell, spill the tea. It's not like all that, maybe I shouldn't blow it out as much, but we are recording this in January, just in case it comes out later in the year. And so, of course, it's time for the new year and people think about New Year's resolutions and all that. And I'm not really a resolution guy, never have been, but it's a time when you think about your life and think about possible changes or adjustments you want to make.

Michelle: So what are you doing, Kev?

Kevin: So one of my objectives this year, not a resolution, but an objective, is to try new foods. And not just new recipes, but actually new ingredients.

Michelle: OK, hopefully crickets aren't in there.

Kevin: Oh, I've already tried those. They're fine. They're delicious.

Michelle: OK, move on. I forget. I forget I even said that.

Kevin: You raised it. So I've discovered two new foods just in the last couple of weeks.

Michelle: OK, do tell.

Kevin: Now, again, these might not be particularly new for anyone. They're not particularly exotic, but for me, they're brand new. I've never dealt with them before.

Michelle: All right, then I'll pretend to be excited.

Kevin: Super amazing. Pretend. Yeah, human. Pretend to be excited. So the first one is pumpkin seed butter.

Michelle: Oh, yeah. Nice.

Kevin: It is absolutely delicious. Like it gives a nice, I specifically tried it because I wanted something, you know, as I've mentioned before, I have overnight oats.

Michelle: Yeah.

Kevin: Every morning for breakfast. And I wanted something just to boost my protein a little bit, because that's not a really high protein breakfast. And I don't want to get crazy about protein, but I want a little bit more. Sure.

Michelle: A little bit of texture, a little bit of flavor.

Kevin: And a little bit of texture, a little bit of flavor. But like I've tried peanut butter in it and it just is overwhelming.

Michelle: Oh, my gosh. I love peanut butter in my oats.

Kevin: I love peanut butter, but it just becomes peanut butter oats, which in the morning is just a little bit too much. It's a bit too strong. Pumpkin seed butter is like much mellower flavor. Fades into the background, even under oats, which taste like nothing. And it gives a slightly nutty flavor. Nice. It just works. It's just, it's amazing. So that's one of my two finds.

Michelle: I used to love roasting pumpkin seeds when I was a kid with my mom. You know, when after carving the jack-o-lantern and all that.

Kevin: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And pepitas are like amazing. And no, I love it. So I've just discovered this and I've gone through like half a jar in a couple of weeks. It's so good.

Michelle: You went through an entire jar in two weeks by yourself?

Kevin: No, half a jar. Oh, okay. Half a jar. And it's one of the, it's a little tiny. Yeah, I've just been like scooping it up. Here, I have some now while I'm recording. Yum, yum, yum.

Michelle: It's usually something a girl does after a breakup.

Kevin: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. A big tub of ice cream. No, yeah. I'm just like eating pumpkin seed butter by the spoonful. No, I'm not there quite yet. Give it time. Give it time, but not yet. And my second food discovery was wonton wrappers.

Michelle: Oh, interesting. Okay, tell me about that. I'm curious.

Kevin: So I've had wontons, of course, at restaurants and such, but the thought of making wontons just annoys me beyond belief. I can't imagine folding up these little dumplings and I don't have the patience for that. But I've seen a bunch of recipes that you basically make a wonton wrapper lasagna. And it's really, really good.

Michelle: That sounds really cool. So you use that instead of lasagna noodles, you mean?

Kevin: Yeah, instead of lasagna noodles. And it's sort of an Asian flavored lasagna rather than Italian. So it's more just the concept of layers is really the lasagna part of it. So it's mostly you mix up, I mean, whatever meat you want, or I've used shredded tofu, which is my new go-to. That's another discovery I made, but a little while ago, I think I've talked about that before. Shredded tofu and Napa cabbage. That's nicely shredded. Mix that up with a bunch of spices and flavorings and such like that. And then you simply layer some of this so-called meat mixture. And you could, of course, use it with pork or whatever. And then layer the wonton wrappers and then more of the mix and then more wonton wrappers. And you get three or four layers. And it's basically an Asian flavored lasagna. And it's super easy. It comes together so quickly and so easily. And the wonton wrappers are actually really, really easy to deal with. Easier than lasagna noodles, honestly.

Michelle: I've never bought them before. So what is the ingredient panel like on wonton wrappers?

Kevin: You know what? It's very, very small, which is a good thing. And I can pronounce everything. It's basically wheat flour and I believe some egg. And that's just about it. And water, probably.

Michelle: Cool. Oh, that's so interesting. What an innovative comfort food.

Kevin: Yeah, yeah. And it comes together so quickly and so easily. And you could throw just about any flavor onto it. Yeah, so that's my goal. We'll see how far it goes. But that's my goal to try to discover new ingredients.

Michelle: I've been doing with the cold. I've been doing lots of stews, lots of instapot, stuff like that. And making some very yummy curries. I've just been really embracing the legumes and the root vegetables. And making things warm and spicy and switching it up.

Kevin: If we ever have another recipe episode, I've got a great, super simple recipe for a red lentil curry.

Michelle: Nice. Okay, well, let's do it.

Kevin: It comes together in 20 minutes and it's super good, especially for this time of year when it's winter. Anyways, what do you have for me today? What do you have for us today?

Michelle: Well, you know, this is a question that's come up many times. I've actually, it's my own listener question.

Kevin: Okay, we are our own listeners sometimes. I love it.

Michelle: Well, I've often, you know, intended to dive into the whole issue of microwaving your food.

Kevin: Okay.

Michelle: Ever since I was a nutrition student, like years and years ago. And I've never, I've always used my microwave very cautiously because obviously it's a convenience thing for reheating or thawing or defrosting and stuff like that.

Kevin: Or a very expensive popcorn maker.

Michelle: But, you know, the question is, is, you know, is microwaving actually safe? Like, is there any level of harm to exposure was a question. And does it actually decrease the nutritive value of food in any way? And I've wondered this for a really long time.

Kevin: Yeah, and that's interesting because I have heard both sides of the story in the media on this over the years. That it's horrible, it kills nutrients, it's bad for you, blah, blah, blah. And also, no, it's absolutely fine and it's great. And in some ways it can be better from a nutrient standpoint. So I'm very curious where the science comes down on it.

Michelle: Yeah, it's interesting. You know, it's kind of funny. I think, you know, I was always super cautious about it. Some of this is from, you know, when you specifically are in a classroom full of people that are like-minded around holistic nutrition. You kind of gravitate to the purest form of things. I mean, everybody in my class was like making their own kefir water and brewing their own kombucha, you know. And I was like, I chopped vegetables. But, you know, I think a lot of it, if I'm really honest with you, this is funny. It's my brother, you know, older brothers teasing and bugging about things when you're a kid. My brother always referred to our microwave as a nuclear particle reorganizer. And that sort of stuck with me, you know. Anyway, so I kind of thought, yeah, are these good or bad? Because I don't know, my most common use of it is for defrosting or thawing. And I often wonder about it. Like, you know, when it beeps five times, like, ooh, like what happens if I open it before the beeps are done? Am I going to be less exposed to nuclear radiation or something? Damn you, Ed. Anyway, I started reading about it and looking things up. And I thought, this is, you know what, the guy who invented the microwave oven. What an interesting dude.

Kevin: Okay, I never would have thought that.

Michelle: Oh, no, he's so interesting. And I also had no idea that they were, like, mainstream available in the 50s. I didn't know this, because I can remember we didn't have one growing up. And I was, you know, young in the 70s and was an 80s teenager. I think it was the 80s before we had one in my house.

Kevin: I remember the first time I ever saw a microwave, it was in a friend's house. And that would have been early 80s. I think.

Michelle: It was the more well-off families that had them first.

Kevin: Yes, yes, exactly. Or the people who were really, really technologically forward.

Michelle: Into gadgets.

Kevin: The people who owned a VCR before VCRs were a thing.

Michelle: Or one of those giant, like, phone, portable cell phones that you could have in your car.

Kevin: Yes, yes, exactly.

Michelle: That came in a little suitcase.

Kevin: Yes, because it was so heavy and the battery was massive.

Michelle: So the microwave was invented in 1946 by, I'm going to put in quotes, engineer named Percy Spencer. And I'm putting quotes around this because Percy Spencer was not formally educated. This guy is so interesting. Because he was like, he was orphaned at a very young age. And he had to be raised by an aunt and uncle. And then the uncle died. So he had to drop out of grammar school as a young kid to get a job to help support himself and his aunt. But he was some sort of a savant. Because he had this incredible ability to absorb knowledge and understand complex concepts. And just read and self-educate himself. So despite not ever finishing grammar school, he committed his spare time to expanding his knowledge. And he self-educated himself in topics such as calculus, trigonometry, physics, and chemistry. Just because he was interested and he wanted to know how things work. So he ended up having various jobs. First of all, he started working because they had to help support themselves to live. From sunrise to sunset. First in a spool mill. And then he got a job installing electricity at a local paper mill. Despite not having any formal training or electrical engineering. But he, in effect, started to work as an electrical engineer. So anyway, he grows up. He ends up leading the power tube division at Raytheon. Which was a big company at the time. And during World War II, Raytheon was huge. And they, at the time, had these power tubes or vacuum tubes. That were primarily used to generate and amplify high frequency signals for radar systems, radio communications, etc. So then there's this device called the cavity magnetron. Which was a very powerful vacuum tube developed by the British. And then it was refined by Americans. And it was used to generate high power radar waves or microwaves. Which enabled compact radar systems. Which were installed on aircrafts, ships, gun laying systems. That were used to spot submarines and guide bombers. Which, fun fact, my father was a bombardier in World War II. So he would have been using these systems.

Kevin: Of course, yeah.

Michelle: Anyway, with a name like magnetron, it sounds like it's this huge thing. But it's actually not. A magnetron is actually quite small. Like the size of a book or a small dessert plate or something like that. So it's not very big. Anyway, the story goes that Percy Spencer was hanging out in the lab one day. By the cavity magnetron. And he had a candy bar in his pocket. And it melted. So according to Wikipedia, he wasn't the first person to notice this phenomenon. But he was the first person to investigate it. Which he did with his curious savant mind. And while the details aren't fully verifiable. But by different person accounts, apparently people that knew him. The legend has it that he proceeded to do several different food experiments. Including popcorn kernels. Which became the world's first microwave sort of food. Microwave popcorn. And fun fact, it still is the most commonly microwaved food today. That doesn't surprise me one bit. Thanks to university students everywhere.

Kevin: Yeah, exactly.

Michelle: And then in another experiment, this one's funny. An egg was placed in a tea kettle. And the magnetron was placed directly above the tea kettle. And the result was that the egg ended up exploding in the face of one of his coworkers. Who was looking into the kettle to observe it.

Kevin: Oh no.

Michelle: That had to hurt.

Kevin: Yeah, exactly. Again, and that's also a test that's been done by university students all over the world throughout history.

Michelle: Probably. So, Spencer created the first true microwave oven. By attaching a high density electromagnetic field generator into an enclosed metal box. Doesn't this kind of sound like the modern microwave?

Kevin: Okay, yeah, basically.

Michelle: And the magnetron emitted microwaves into the metal box. Blocking any escape of those waves. And then it allowed for controlled and safe experimentation. So, he then placed various food items in the box to see what would happen. And observe the effects and monitoring temperatures, etc. So, the company that he worked for, Raytheon, loved what he was doing on company time. Filed for a US patent application for a microwave cooking oven. And in 1947, the first commercially produced microwave oven was about 6 feet tall. It weighed 750 pounds. And it cost about $5,000 at the time. Which in 2024 currency would be worth $70,410, apparently.

Kevin: So, of course, it just went into every single kitchen throughout Middle America at that point.

Michelle: Yeah, and in 1967, the most affordable microwave that you could buy was down to $495. Much, much more accessible. But still not accessible to the average household. Because in 2024 dollars, that's still just shy of $5,000.

Kevin: Ouch, yeah, that's a lot.

Michelle: But this 1967 version was reasonably sized. And, you know, those who could afford it did have one.

Kevin: So, that's probably why they didn't really take off until the 80s. Because they finally got to a place where they were more affordable. And, you know, they could actually enter into sort of regular people's homes.

Michelle: Yeah.

Kevin: Not just the uber rich.

Michelle: And I don't know when it became a more common appliance. I just know that's when we first had one, was in the 80s.

Kevin: And I'm sure that's about where, like, I think that's where the idea of a microwave and microwaving food kind of entered the public zeitgeist. And so, I think the early 80s was kind of when it happened.

Michelle: Yeah. Now, the interesting thing is, you know, we all know this, that when you've worked for a company and if you discover anything or produce any work, it becomes property content, right? So, it's kind of funny this, because he was such a curious and intelligent sort of savant mind. He went on over his lifetime to own, I think, over 300 patents for things that he invented. But this particular discovery, he didn't own the patent. So, think about how common, how fundamental a microwave oven is now in restaurants, in households, like everywhere. Yeah. How much money do you think Percy Spencer made?

Kevin: Oh, probably his salary. Like, probably not very much. Because it was the company that got all the benefits from it.

Michelle: Pretty much. He didn't even get royalties for inventing the microwave oven. He was paid a one-time gratuity of $2 from Raytheon. Ooh!

Kevin: Wow!

Michelle: Which was sort of the standard payment that the company made to all inventors who were on their payroll and using company time to, you know, and resulting in patents.

Kevin: And it's kind of unfortunate and ironic that even though he had like 300 other inventions, this is probably his biggest invention and he doesn't own the patent for that.

Michelle: That's horrible.

Kevin: Tragic.

Michelle: So anyway, so then the question remains, like, I just found that super interesting. So thanks for bearing with that.

Kevin: Yeah, no, it's an interesting origin story of the microwave oven. I had no idea there was this history behind it.

Michelle: And I had no idea that it, like, was invented in the 40s.

Kevin: No.

Michelle: And that it, you know, kind of started with, well, you know what, World War II, industrial boom. Like, I guess that I shouldn't be surprised.

Kevin: That's where a lot of inventions and yeah, a lot of technology really took off. But interesting.

Michelle: So, and it all started with a candy bar.

Kevin: A melted candy bar, which we've all had at some point on a hot summer's day.

Michelle: Yeah, exactly. Or the chapstick that you leave in your car and then it becomes summer.

Kevin: Yes.

Michelle: So this magnetron, like, it sounds, you know, super techie and microwaving.

Kevin: It sounds like the villain from Transformers.

Michelle: Wasn't he Magnetron? I think so.

Kevin: Megatron, Magnetron, same thing.

Michelle: Yeah, I don't remember, but yes.

Kevin: Magnetron, you shall not win.

Michelle: So, as I sort of quickly went over earlier, it converts electrical energy into microwaves. And microwaves are electromagnetic waves that are longer than infrared radiation waves, but also shorter than radio waves. So a magnetron is the essential component that makes the microwave oven do its magic. It sends these microwaves into a confined cooking space, like that metal box that was described. And it goes through a special path called a wave guide. I didn't dive into that. That's getting too techie. I just trust. Okay, that's kind of how it works. So once inside, microwaves bounce off the metal walls and then they are absorbed by the food. And they are particularly effective at making water molecules in the food vibrate rapidly. This is actually what causes it to create a lot of friction, which generates heat. And then that in turn cooks the food. So it's really more about exciting these water molecules. It's not like it's just kind of, you know, heating the entire piece of food itself. It starts with the heating of these water molecules. And I think that's why foods heat unevenly, because it's based on the disbursement of moisture inside whatever you're microwaving. That also explained for me, Kevin, why when you microwave something versus cooking it with another method, it changes the texture quite often.

Kevin: Yes.

Michelle: Because it will be reducing the moisture content, right?

Kevin: Right.

Michelle: Yeah.

Kevin: Right.

Michelle: So that made sense to me. So since the water in food is unevenly distributed, then that's the reason why most modern microwaves include a rotating glass turntable, which, you know, the constant turning allows it to heat more evenly throughout. You know, I remember our first microwave didn't have that turntable.

Kevin: No, similarly. Similarly.

Michelle: Right. But now it's standard, right?

Kevin: Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle: So understanding this does help to dispel that old myth that microwaves cook from the inside out. Did you remember hearing that?

Kevin: Yes. Oh, I do. I do. And similar to your brother, in my family, it was always called the nuker.

Michelle: Yes.

Kevin: Oh, stick it in the nuker. Nuking your food, right? Nuke your food. Yeah. And it's interesting that there's always been this connotation of a microwave is somehow nuclear and radioactive when it's really just microwaves. Like, it's essentially sound waves, like sonar.

Michelle: It is a form of radiation, but you're right. It's fundamentally different than...

Kevin: Nuclear radiation.

Michelle: ...than ionizing radiation. This is a non-ionizing form of radiation.

Kevin: This really just gets the water moving. That's all it is. It disturbs the water.

Michelle: This is the thing I think that people are really hesitant about. We're wondering, are we radiating ourselves when we stand too close to a microwave?

Kevin: Yes.

Michelle: Because anybody that's had a medical x-ray understands that you have to have the lead thing covering you when somebody leaves the room or even if you're getting a dental x-ray. These are the kinds of experiences we grow up with that understandably make you skeptical. Am I? Of course. What is my level of exposure, right? But the truth is, and you've already identified it, Kevin, the harmful types of radiation or the immediately harmful types of radiation are those that are ionizing. And that's the really important piece. So this type of radiation in a microwave is non-ionizing radiation, which is fundamentally different. And therefore, so is the relative risk. So ionizing radiation or the more harmful kind has enough energy to knock electrons off of atoms, which is effectively what ionizing is. And then that damages cells and damages DNA. So that's like x-rays, CT scans, gamma rays, things like that. But non-ionizing radiation, as you pointed out, is like a radio wave.

Kevin: Sonar and radar and such, yeah.

Michelle: Yeah, and infrared. And it's not harmful at all unless there's extremely prolonged exposures. Like certain UV rays are ionizing, right? And we all know that too much exposure is harmful, right?

Kevin: Right.

Michelle: So non-ionizing radiation of radio waves, microwaves, infrared, because they do not inherently damage cells and DNA, the penetration depth and the wavelengths make them more of a safer method of heating. Recall earlier, I just explained that microwaves are electromagnetic waves that are longer than infrared, but shorter than radio waves. So I just want to unpack this a little bit because, you know, as my mind is want to do, I sort of start to wonder, well, then, like, you know, so what is the relative risk of each one of these things? So I don't think anyone really worries about listening to too much radio or too much television in terms of harmful radiation, right?

Kevin: Oh, I bet there's some conspiracy theorists, but most people don't. Yes.

Michelle: So I wanted to start with radio waves and kind of work my way up. Radio waves sit at the low energy, long wavelength end of the electromagnetic spectrum. However, absorbed in very large amounts, they can cause tissues to heat up similar to a microwave oven. The fundamental physics of non-ionizing radiation means that it lacks the energy required to break chemical bonds and directly damage DNA through, you know, common exposures. OK, so then next, let's compare another type of non-ionizing radiation. Far infrared, for example, like this is super common in my life. I love me an infrared sauna. One of the yoga studios I frequently go to uses infrared heat instead of conventional heat to heat their hot yoga studio. And these operate at a shorter, gentler wavelength designed for surface level absorption and deep tissue heating that's therapeutic. And this apparently supports detoxification through the sweat by effectively mobilizing toxins that are stored in fat cells. That's the reason why, you know, we love our hot yoga and our saunas, etc. But understanding those two things like we we kind of we don't think of those things as harmful. An infrared sauna, a radio. Right. So this helps us to understand the non-ionizing microwaves. So microwave ovens are of the same type, except that their wavelengths are longer. And this is what allows them to directly excite water molecules effectively. And typically for cooking food.

Kevin: But I would assume that, again, if you just came across a random microwave out in nature, it's not just going to suddenly boil water. Part of the microwave oven is the fact that you said the microwaves are confined into a box, and so they're reflected back onto each other, and that's part of what makes the microwaves sort of more powerful in making the water excited, because you've got all the reflections too.

Michelle: That's part of it as well, Yeah, it's that piece earlier mentioned where it directs it into a cooking space through a special path called a wave guide, right? So that is the science of it. So yeah, you're exactly right.

Kevin: So they're more or less harmless, just like radio waves and infrared waves, which they lie between, unless they're sort of focused and unless they are used in this particular you know, way to focus them and cook the food.

Michelle: Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's kind of what I got from that was like, you know, if you just kind of break it down to a physics level mechanistically, this is like safe, right? Which is why it was, you know, broadly distributed on the market, I suppose.

Kevin: Yeah, I am glad to know that.

Michelle: So what about eating microwaved food?

Kevin: Nutrition.

Michelle: So what does this mean to nutrition? So first of all, the evidence seems to be pretty clear that it's really not the microwaving of the food so much as the pre-packaged and ultra processed microwavable food products that are the issue.

Kevin: Of course, of course. I mean, that's a whole other question. I mean, we've had a couple of episodes about where we've talked about ultra processed food and any food that is essentially ready to eat the minute you heat it up is going to be ultra processed.

Michelle: If it's an ultra processed food, it doesn't matter whether you're boiling it, baking it, microwaving it. If it's ultra processed, it's going to be host to this litany of poor ingredients, namely extra sugar, salt and fat, preservatives, other chemicals, etc. And the other part of that is the packaging that those foods come in often that you're microwaving the food in. So I want to talk about that. It's worth mentioning just because it is one of the most pervasive problems in food nutrition today. And that's why it comes up over and over again. It comes up on this podcast, it comes up in news, it comes up in studies, is that ever since the 1950s, the food industry has innovated tens of thousands of products designed to take advantage of microwave ovens. And it's everything from excess sodium to genetically modified ingredients, flavorings, etc. There is a huge difference between reheating some frozen vegetables or that leftover tofu scramble that you made yesterday in a microwave safe dish such as glass or ceramic versus microwaving some ultra processed, ready to eat meal in a plastic container covered in plastic film. So the latter is part of an unhealthy eating pattern that is a detractor of health, while the former is a very reasonable way to heat up or cook healthy food in a hurry. So if that's all you're using your microwave for is for cooking prepackaged and ultra processed dinners and popcorn and or reheating fast food takeout containers that come in styrofoam and such like that, that is the issue. Don't blame the microwave for your declining health.

Kevin: Of course. Yeah, exactly. It's what you're putting in the microwave. That's the problem.

Michelle: Exactly. So I'm going to go through the packaging and then I'm going to get to the to the food study. Is that OK? So the issue with microwaving plastics and styrofoam and other food packaging is there are a few issues with this. So the first is not necessarily related to the microwavable foods packaging, but it's more of the other takeout containers and the other things like the the styrofoam. But then there's other packaging, like even like the paperish ones that have the the coatings on them.

Kevin: Mm hmm. Yeah.

Michelle: These are full of PFAS or the polyfluorinated substances or forever chemicals. And they're called forever chemicals because they're highly resistant to breakdown due to a very strong carbon fluorine bond, causing them to persist in the environment and accumulate in human bodies over time. And according to the Environmental Working Group, PFAS are in the blood of 98 percent of Americans. So it's almost penetrated 100 percent of people.

Kevin: Right. Right. They're everywhere.

Michelle: The health harms that they can cause include greater risk of certain cancers, basically suppressing the immune system, period, and more. They are linked with increased cholesterol, reproductive and developmental problems and other health harms. So microwaving in microwavable packaging, takeout containers, plastic exposes you to these forever chemicals as well as bisphenols, phthalates and more. So so PFAS, it's like coated paper. It's like grease resistant.

Kevin: Yeah.

Michelle: And it's actually prevalent in microwave popcorn bags.

Kevin: Right.

Michelle: So microwaving popcorn is a is a source of exposure of these chemicals. So if you don't microwave your popcorn, just get an air popper or put it in a paper bag.

Kevin: Yeah, exactly. You can just buy the bottles of the kernels and then put them in a in a just a brown lunch bag and then just fold the top of the lunch bag over two or three times to to sort of steal the the the steam in and then they pop by themselves.

Michelle: Because PFAS is often found in these fast food wrappers as well. And it's in everything. It's in everything, Kevin. It's in pizza boxes. You know, it's compostable. Even these, you know, compostable fiber based takeout containers, which we think are like super eco friendly. They're full of PFAS. So, I mean, if if you're going to get those types of takeout containers and you're going to want to reheat your food, don't reheat them in the container. Take them out, put them in glass or ceramic styrofoam. I can't even believe we're still selling styrofoam containers, but it doesn't typically contain PFAS, but it can cause other harmful chemicals to leach out into your food. And the primary concern here are bisphenols. So BPA, BPS, BPF and phthalates. So styrene is the chemical used to make polystyrene foam or styrofoam, and it's classified as a as a possible carcinogen. So stop microwaving your food, people, in plastic containers and takeout containers. Many TV dinners instruct you to cook them with some sort of plastic packaging still intact. But I cannot understate the danger of these BPA and phthalates. Just before we exit this topic, people are always wondering, what about cancer causing compounds? When we're microwaving our meat, you know, are we increasing our exposure to heterocyclic amines and those compounds that come from barbecuing? Like barbecuing is is one of the things that's it's danger. It increases your exposure to these HCAs and PAHs, which, you know, they warn against charring your food on a barbecue, et cetera.

Kevin: Right.

Michelle: Right. You know, so what role does the microwave play in that? Well, it turns out that actually, if you partially cook your food, your meat in a microwave first before you finish it off on a stove, in an oven, on a barbecue or whatever, it actually decreases your risk.

Kevin: Oh, OK. Yeah. So that's good.

Michelle: Yeah. So you can, you know, kind of use the microwave to partially cook if you want to. If you still want to have that meat and you want to decrease your exposure, that's that's something that can help.

Kevin: That's good to know.

Michelle: Now, one food group that can actually cause concern when microwaved is if you're doing prolonged cooking of starchy foods like potatoes, OK, rather than briefly reheating your meals, which I would still think is what a majority of people are doing. I think a majority of people are reheating food in their microwave. I don't know how many people are like choosing to cook a whole food in their microwave.

Kevin: See, but now you've got me on the edge of my seat because I can't count the number of times I have baked my potatoes entirely in the microwave.

Michelle: I remember learning that, too.

Kevin: But so tell me.

Michelle: But if you cook a heavily starchy food like a potato, it will increase this acrylamide formation. So acrylamide forms in starchy foods when they are cooked at high temperature, typically producing browned, crispy surfaces such as those seen in like French fries and potato chips and things like this. So microwave heating does consistently produce the highest acrylamide levels compared to other cooking methods. Microwave treated foods can have significantly more acrylamide of these, you know, from these starchy foods than roasting, deep frying or pan frying.

Kevin: So that is super, super interesting because I have consciously made the effort to microwave potatoes rather than boiling them, because I always thought, oh, you know, they always warn about boiling because all the nutrients go into the water. Good stuff leeches into the water. So me, I'm thinking, oh, so microwaving must be better. So I always baked my potatoes or even if I was doing mashed potatoes, I would mostly cook them in the microwave and then I might just finish them for a minute or two in water to soften them up before I mash them. But clearly I've been wrong and that's not the way to do it.

Michelle: Well, yeah, this is this is the caution because of that. If you're doing it from raw to cooked, it's prolonged high temperature, particularly very high power microwave heating, such as, you know, the ones that the industrial ones in restaurants and things like that. Well, I don't have an industrial one, but yeah, but short, low power microwave use for for blanching, et cetera, can actually help reduce acrylamide in subsequent cooking steps. So you could take the other approach like they suggested with me and do partial cooking in the microwave to speed it up and then finish it off with another method. But at the same time, you know, these are like these are focused studies on these issues. Right. But then when they kind of step back to the macro, there's another source that says, well, although acrylamide is classified as a probable carcinogen, there is debate as to whether the amounts typically found in food are actually enough to cause a problem. And when you microwave your potatoes, you don't get significant browning like you do with other cooking. So, yes, it's a it's a risk. How much of a risk is it, though? Really? How many microwave potatoes are you eating?

Kevin: When I was in university, a whole lot. Let me tell you.

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. So if it's just six of one, half a dozen of the other, if you can just as easily bake or boil your potato. I mean, there is going to be any time you boil a vegetable of any kind, you're going to have nutrient loss into the water. But let's put it this way. If you're baking a potato as opposed to going out and buying French fries, I wouldn't worry about the nutrient loss in the water.

Kevin: Right. OK. OK, that's a good way to think about it. So, you know, I guess I'm curious about cooking a head of broccoli on the stove or roasting it versus throwing it in the microwave and cooking the broccoli there like sort of apples to apples or broccoli to broccoli, I guess. Is there a significant difference or, you know, are they more or less equal?

Michelle: To your question that you want to know, Kevin, what about this loss of nutrients?

Kevin: Yes.

Michelle: I was surprised to read this. OK, so contrary to belief, many microwaves do not appear to cause any significant nutrition loss more than any other form of cooking. And in fact, in some cases, it may be better. So there was a comparative study published in the Journal of Food Science that looked at six different cooking methods on 20 different vegetables, comparing three distinct measures of antioxidant activity. So the study found that microwave cooking preserves more than 97 percent of the antioxidants in the 20 vegetables that they studied because of less water. Compared to, say, a pressure cooker, it lost more antioxidants in cooking under pressure than the microwaving. The most antioxidant loss was boiling. Averaging over these 20 vegetables, it removed about 14 percent of the antioxidants. Michael Greger did a video on this as well, talking about this study. And I like the way that he characterized it. He said, you know, of the broccoli that they boiled with the 14 percent loss, you could just eat one little floret of broccoli and it would make up for the 14 percent loss of the water.

Kevin: Right. Yeah, exactly. Cook one floret. You've made it up. Yeah. 14 percent doesn't sound like very much.

Michelle: I'm just always sensitive to this. Right. Because we get too single nutrient focus. We lose the forest for the trees. We get hyper focused on this one little fact and we modify an entire behavior on that one little piece and lose the fact that, well, like you've still got like 86 percent of the nutrients in there.

Kevin: Exactly. Exactly. 86 percent is pretty darn good. If that's the worst cooking method that you can choose, I'll take 86 percent. That's not bad.

Michelle: Exactly.

Kevin: And as you said, better to have 86 percent of the nutrition of your potato than to buy French fries.

Michelle: Right. And if you're really that worried about it, then make a soup or a stew, like use the water.

Kevin: Just microwave. Go crazy in microwave because that's the best way. That'll keep what was a 97 percent. So that's pretty darn good. If having the convenience of using a microwave encourages you to have fresher food and better quality food, then that's amazing. Like that's the total win.

Michelle: Exactly. Nobody needs to feel any guilt at all as a self, as a parent about pulling out a bag of frozen vegetables, putting them in a microwave safe glass bowl and heating it up in there for dinner in a few minutes, as opposed to chopping and peeling and cooking and things another way. If that's the barrier, good for you for choosing the whole food in a convenient form over something less nutritive. So we need to stop shaming ourselves for I know this being the kid in nutrition class that wasn't making my own kombucha at home.

Kevin: There's nothing wrong with that.

Michelle: You know what? I I I'm I'm willing to bet that probably today, like I'm still probably maintaining, you know, 90 percent of the good food behaviors that I learned in school because I made, you know, the the convenient choices that allowed me to fit this in my lifestyle.

Kevin: Right. Exactly. And that's what it comes down to.

Michelle: So like worry about the the big picture. Don't worry about the small things that you're not doing. There's no shame in frozen vegetables. Frozen vegetables are arguably more nutritive than than the ones that traveled how many thousand kilometers on a on a truck getting sprayed with nitrogen to to to ripen them and then sitting on a grocery store shelf for for a week before you brought it home and then another three or four days before you made it. You know what I mean? They were exactly they were flash frozen. So there's no shame in that at all. There's no shame in frozen fruit.

Kevin: Exactly. Oh, I love frozen fruit.

Michelle: Yeah, exactly. So just eat real food.

Kevin: Exactly. Eat real food and you can microwave it. It's OK. It's not a nuker. It's a microwave.

Michelle: I would think the most common thing I use it for is for reheating leftovers or if I'm doing some baking and I need to like thaw a bit of butter or something like a vegan butter.

Kevin: Right. Or it's amazing. Amazing for melting chocolate.

Michelle: Yes. Yes, I agree. I've done that, too. So I was super happy that I looked all of this up and kind of looked into it a bit because I thought, oh, OK, yeah, it's it's fine. And, you know, the beeping five times that it does. I don't know. This is probably my brother again who told me, oh, if you open it up before it's done beeping, you're going to get radiated. No, it's just there so that numbskulls like me don't walk away and forget that they've got.

Kevin: Don't forget about it. Yeah, exactly. And if you actually watch it, the microwave stops completely like the motor of the microwave stops completely before the first beep. If you time it so clearly the motors off all any lingering waves have stopped and then the beeping starts. So it's just you're not going to damage your brother and say you've ruined my life. And you know what? I need to stop. I still to this day call it the nuker. I need to stop that.

Michelle: Yeah, it's not a nuker at all.

Kevin: It's not a nuker and it has nothing to do with with ionizing radiation.

Michelle: In fact, a savant, you know, physicist, self-taught engineer is just going to grammar school dropout. Yeah, he's just going to think that you're very unschooled.

Kevin: Yeah, exactly. Which I am, which I am, because, you know, I I like how the inventor of this, you know, self-taught himself geometry and trigonometry and physics and chemistry, like all of the subjects that I have nothing to do with. So so that's amazing for him. And I will just trust his invention, which he got paid two dollars for. Poor guy.

Michelle: If Percy Spencer was alive today, he'd say, hey, I made a hearty two dollars inventing this thing. Don't disrespect it.

Kevin: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, thank you for enlightening us on microwaves. This is this has been very eye opening for me and and I learned a ton. I love it.

Michelle: Yeah.

Kevin: It's time for The Dad Joke.

Michelle: And I've got two today.

Kevin: OK, I've got two. So the first one, the kid said, Dad, did you get a haircut? And the dad said, no, I got all my hairs cut. OK, the second one's a little bit better. I led with the worst one. I hope we'll see.

Michelle: Well, there was nowhere to go but up.

Kevin: Well, I don't know. We'll have to see. This could be down.

Michelle: I'm just OK.

Kevin: Why did the Scarecrow win the Scarecrow of the Year Award?

Michelle: Oh, why did the Scarecrow win the Scarecrow of the Year Award?

Kevin: Because he was outstanding in his field. Well, thank you, Michelle, for that host question. It's not really a listener question, but a host question. And if you have any questions for Michelle, you can reach out to us on email. It's n the number four n o o b s at gmail dot com or connect with us on Facebook at Facebook dot com slash Nutrition for Noobs. So until then, eat your greens.

Michelle: And be real, everyone.

Kevin: And don't be afraid to microwave your greens either.

Michelle: Exactly.

Kevin: This has been Nutrition for Noobs. We hope you're a bit more enlightened about how your fantastic and complicated body works with the food you put into it. If you have a question or a topic you'd like Michelle to discuss, drop us a line at n4noobs at gmail dot com. That's the letter n, the number four n o o b s at gmail dot com. If you haven't already, you can subscribe to the podcast on whatever your favorite platform might be. Also, please consider leaving a review or telling your friends. That's the best way to spread the word. We'll see you next time with another interesting topic. The views and opinions expressed on Nutrition for Noobs are those of the hosts. It is not intended to be a substitute for medical, nutritional or health advice. Listeners should seek a personal consultation with a qualified practitioner if they have any concerns or before commencing any actions mentioned in the podcast. The first is, oh my God, my brain just.

Michelle: I was going to say, did you freeze or did you have a stroke? Like what happened?

Kevin: Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh, okay. Okay. I got it. No, I just pulled a blank for a second. It's like, what is that product called? Oh my God. Okay. Okay. Restart.