Loading...

Transcript

Kevin: Hey, Michelle, good to see you.

Michelle: Always good to see you, my friend.

Kevin: Always, always, always, always. So what do you have for us today?

Michelle: Well, this one exceeded my expectations, Kevin. I started to dive into this. This is a crazy rabbit hole. So today we're going to talk about a food that has, I'm not joking, it has sparked lawsuits, government bans, black markets, and even a color war.

Kevin: Really?

Michelle: Do you have any guesses?

Kevin: Black market. Well, alcohol had prohibition, but we've already done an episode on alcohol.

Michelle: Right. So it's not alcohol.

Kevin: The black market is tobacco, well, no, tobacco is not a food. Some sort of drug. I don't know. I have no idea what, what? Tell me.

Michelle: Well, those are good guesses, but no, believe it or not, we're going to talk about margarine.

Kevin: No, a black market on margarine. Oh, hey, I've got some contraband margarine for you.

Michelle: There was a margarine black market. I'm not kidding.

Kevin: Oh my God.

Michelle: We have a listener to thank for today's topic. And I want to thank her because I thought, oh yeah, I can do that. I knew a bit about the health implications of margarines and a bit about that, but I had no idea it had such plot twists in its history.

Kevin: Really? Okay. So we have Trina to thank for this. Well, thank you, Trina. I had no idea we were doing this episode and I didn't know that it was going to be such an interesting topic.

Michelle: Yeah, because you gave me this topic to look into quite a while ago. You probably think I forgot about it.

Kevin: Well, it was more, I thought that it was like going to be a super easy throwaway, like, oh yeah, five minutes and you can cover it off. I didn't know it was going to be yet another rabbit hole. You have a habit of rabbit hole, Michelle.

Michelle: So interesting. Kind of like when I looked into the microwave, I was like, oh my gosh, this is so fascinating. You know what? Let's just start here. Did you ever grow up in a household that had strictly butter or strictly margarine? Because I remember when we used to always have butter and then my mom brought margarine home because she thought it was healthier.

Kevin: See, my household was firmly, firmly 100% butter. Because I think for my parents, there seemed to be a bit of a class distinction. They weren't concerned about health, but butter was somehow considered higher class than margarine. And I don't know if that's the price or the positioning. I have no idea. But they needed butter because they thought it was like fancier.

Michelle: Interesting. Well, it did. Margarine was originally supposed to be a cheaper alternative to butter and it made it more affordable for people. So I think there probably is a bit about that.

Kevin: And my parents were born in the depression, in which case their early years would have been in those depression years. So maybe that was a bit of a carryover from their parents being price conscious.

Michelle: All right. Could be. Could be. Yeah. It's so funny. Margarine, it was simply invented for that one problem, cheaper butter. But then it spent the next 150 years creating a whole bunch of debates about food science and politics and health. Really? Yes. Yes. The humble, humble butter substitute has a surprisingly dramatic history.

Kevin: The only thing I know about margarine is I am aware that there have been issues around the color and that the yellow color was meant to be added because someone didn't want consumers mistaking margarine for butter. And that's all I know. And that seems kind of silly.

Michelle: Well, very good, Grasshopper. Yes, we're going to get to that.

Kevin: Okay. But there's so much more, it sounds like.

Michelle: One of the plot twists, you know, it was invented in the 1800s originally to feed soldiers. It was just to be cheaper. And it was banned in Canada for decades. Really? And you're right. And then at one point it was that there was a color war about it. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I'm going to save some of that. So the major plot twist, and we're going to go through all of this, was that for years it was marketed as the heart-healthy alternative to butter until scientists discovered that the way it was made created one of the most harmful fats in the modern food supply.

Kevin: Oops. Well, we learned so much over the years. Yeah. If there's one thing this podcast has taught me, it's that the science changes from decade to decade and we really do learn more as time goes on. And some of the things we thought were true in like the 40s or some of the research they did back then is completely ridiculous and doesn't hold up now. So that doesn't surprise me.

Michelle: So don't be discouraged with what I just said, because there's good news and then there's bad news and then there's good news again.

Kevin: As always. And then some more bad news, then some good news.

Michelle: It's like such a winding road. Okay. So as I said, it was invented in the 1860s when Napoleon III offered a prize for anyone who could create a cheap substitute for butter in order to feed the French military and the working class.

Kevin: Really?

Michelle: Yeah.

Kevin: So margarine all came out from like a competition. Yeah, pretty much. I had no idea.

Michelle: A science competition.

Kevin: A science competition. Yeah.

Michelle: So there was a French chemist. You may have to help me with the pronunciation of this because you're, you know, part Francophone and I'm like, I don't do this stuff.

Kevin: Okay.

Michelle: Let's see what you do. Let's see how you do. I'm very Ontarian.

Kevin: Yeah.

Michelle: Okay. So Hippolyte Mejmourier.

Kevin: I think that's pretty good. Hippolyte Mejmourier. That was pretty darn good.

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. I knew you would pick up on that. Okay. So he's a French chemist who won this competition and he created a spread that was made from beef fat and milk. So it looked pale and white and it was way cheaper than butter and that made it popular very, very quickly.

Kevin: Okay.

Michelle: And so that was good. That achieved Napoleon III's goal, but the dairy industry wasn't so happy.

Kevin: Well it's using milk. I mean, I guess it's using, but I guess it's using far less dairy product. Okay. Interesting.

Michelle: So it quickly spread across.

Kevin: It quickly spread. That was a good one, Michelle.

Michelle: Oh my gosh. You're so weird.

Kevin: Okay. Continue. Sorry. It quickly spread across.

Michelle: It spread across Europe and North America in the late 1800s. And then butter producers really started to see it as a major threat and they eventually pressured governments to regulate it.

Kevin: The butter lobby.

Michelle: This leads us to our first weird fact.

Kevin: Okay. Like there haven't already been a few weird facts that you've given us.

Michelle: I read this and I was like, what? So in 1886, Canada, which was not, we didn't have all of our provinces at the time, right? So it was this young Canada. In 1886, young Canada actually banned margarine altogether. The ban lasted for more than 60 years, in case you were wondering how, if the dairy lobby has had much influence. Yes.

Kevin: The dairy lobby. You don't mess with the dairy lobby. Those cows have power.

Michelle: The dairy, yeah. So I don't even know if the dairy board of Canada was around. I don't think it was likely around, but they were already powerful.

Kevin: Yeah, exactly.

Michelle: They were already powerful.

Kevin: Wow.

Michelle: So from 1886 to 1948, it was illegal to manufacture or sell margarine in Canada because the dairy industry wanted to protect butter farmers. And then during World War I, they temporarily lifted that ban because the butter shortages got severe.

Kevin: That's convenient for them.

Michelle: At the same time, there was a strange battle that broke out over color, which leads us to our second weird fact. There was literally a color war over margarine. So butter is naturally yellow because cows, when they eat grass, the grass is rich in carotenoids. So that causes butter to be naturally yellow. But margarine is naturally white. And dairy lobbyists argued that yellow margarine would trick consumers into thinking it was butter. So some governments banned yellow margarine entirely. And in a few places, it even had to be dyed pink so that it would look unappetizing and people wouldn't buy it.

Kevin: That would work for me. I don't want pink butter or pink margarine. But the funny thing is, the margarine that I can remember is always like such a brilliant yellow that you'd never, ever... It's not the nice, natural, pale yellow of butter. It's always like neon yellow.

Michelle: Well that's the color they originally wanted to dye it. But then that's when the butter people were like, hey, hey, hey, wait a minute. We've got yellow.

Kevin: We've got yellow. Yellow's ours. You have to be pink. You have to be a hot pink, Barbie pink margarine for you guys.

Michelle: So this leads us to our third weird fact.

Kevin: How many do you have? Okay. I never knew margarine had so many weird facts.

Michelle: You know, industry, no matter what type of industry it is, it's always very creative. Manufacturers found a workaround from those dye pink laws by selling margarine with little dye packets inside the package. So they didn't dye it yet. People would have to knead the packet into the tub of margarine at home in order to turn it the yellow if they wanted it to look more like butter.

Kevin: Oh my God. I mean, that's incredible. I love that idea though. Like that's, I have to give it to the margarine producers. That's an amazing way to get around the legislation. That's kind of ridiculous legislation. We didn't color it yellow. But still meet the consumer demand. Yeah, exactly. I like that.

Michelle: Yeah. So just imagine if you today had to buy your margarine or your butter product and you had to mix in a color capsule before you could use it.

Kevin: That is ridiculous. That's ridiculous.

Michelle: I know. Right. So, okay. So I've got one more strange historical twist.

Kevin: Okay. Just one?

Michelle: So I already mentioned, you know, young Canada wasn't fully formed into all of our provinces and territories yet. So before Newfoundland joined Canada in 1949, it later became the 10th province at that point in history. Yeah. Well, they had their own margarine industry that used oils from seals, whales, and fish. So if you dive into the recesses of your brain in Canadian history.

Kevin: Dive in. Ha ha ha ha. Fish oil, dive in. Ha ha ha. You're, you're, you're hitting them out of the park today, Michele.

Michelle: You're a card not to be dealt with.

Kevin: Yeah. Exactly.

Michelle: So if you'd like, allow your brain to go into the recesses of the Canadian history that we learned in elementary school, Newfoundland was, just for perspective, it was a self-governing British dominion and it was essentially its own country before it joined Canada in March 1949. So because margarine was banned in Canada at that time, the cheaper Newfoundland margarine was sometimes smuggled into the country. There was a margarine black market. Ha ha ha.

Kevin: The contraband margarine.

Michelle: Yeah. Can you imagine the, like the, the whispers and the cloaks going, yeah, I got your margarine.

Kevin: And oh my God, that's ridiculous. That is, that is, that's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it's like rum runners, but margarine runners.

Michelle: Margarine runners. Oh, I wonder if they were carrying little yellow food dye packets around.

Kevin: Maybe. Yeah. Maybe. You never know. Or pink.

Michelle: Here I got, I got an extra one.

Kevin: Yeah. Ha ha ha.

Michelle: Anyway. Okay. So enough of the weird facts.

Kevin: Interesting. No, I, I like those weird facts. I had no idea that, that such a, a staple ingredient had such a, pardon the pun, but a very colourful history.

Michelle: Oh, look at you. Yeah. Okay. I don't, I don't think this is what our listener wanted to know. So let's get onto.

Kevin: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So what did Trina want to know? What did she actually ask?

Michelle: So I'm sure she wanted to, I, I turned, I think it was a question of health. Is it actually healthier than, than butter? Is it healthy at all?

Kevin: You know? Yeah. Well, what, what she asked specifically is, I know that margarine is controversial. Is it good or bad? And I think that's honestly, that's a question that I've had as well, because it, as you mentioned earlier, it seems that butter and margarine have been on a seesaw for the past umpteen decades where one's healthier than the other's healthier than one's healthier than the other's healthier. And I have no idea at this point, sort of, if, if one is better or not.

Michelle: Yeah. So just, just ignoring what I, what I know from my research, I remember a time where if you were a female that was concerned about losing a few pounds, you were always encouraged to have margarine instead of butter. Right.

Kevin: It was the more health conscious solution.

Michelle: It had that, it had that cachet to it. Yeah. That it was healthier. The early margarines were made from animal fat, as I said. So like beef fat or beef tallow, which has had a resurgence.

Kevin: Or seal blubber if you're from Newfoundland.

Michelle: True. In early 1900s, a new technology changed everything. That's when hydrogenation was invented. Now, this hydrogenation process allowed manufacturers for the first time to turn liquid vegetable oils like soybean or cottonseed oil into solid fats that behaved like butter. So by the mid 20th century, most margarine was made from these partially hydrogenated vegetable oils and the industry thought this was an absolute boon. It was seen as a huge nutritional advance because butter was high in saturated fat and margarine was promoted as the modern heart healthy alternative.

Kevin: Right.

Michelle: But decades later, scientists discovered a major problem with hydrogenated oils. This partial hydrogenation created trans fats, which raises LDL cholesterol, lowers HDL cholesterol, which is the good cholesterol, and significantly increases risk of heart disease.

Kevin: Right. I remember that coming out, that hydrogenated fats, basically anything that is solid at room temperature is bad for you because of the trans fats. I remember that little nugget.

Michelle: Exactly. And then I was fascinated to learn reading this, that that was discovered by a scientist at Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, which is our friend Walt Willett that you've heard me talk about, who I think is just fantastic from the Eat Lancet Commission and other things today. So what the scientists at Harvard T. Chan School of Public Health found was that even small amounts of trans fats significantly increase heart disease risk. And about 2% of daily calories from trans fats was associated with a 20 to 30% higher coronary heart disease risk. So really myth busted this notion that the margarine of that time was a healthy alternative to butter. In fact, it was much, much worse. So research in the 1990s made it clear that these industrial trans fats were among the most harmful fats in the food supply. And as a result, the government began regulating them. And then Canada eventually banned partially hydrogenated oils and trans fats altogether in 2018.

Kevin: Right. Only in 2018? Yeah. Oh, wow. I thought it was earlier than that.

Michelle: I think they published the ban, but then industry had a couple of years to get the ingredients out of their products.

Kevin: To change their recipes or whatever. Okay, makes sense.

Michelle: So after hearing that history, you might be wondering, so does this mean that butter is actually healthier than margarine?

Kevin: That was my next question.

Michelle: The honest answer is that it depends on which margarine we're talking about. Because as mentioned earlier, earlier margarines from the mid-20th century contain these large amounts of industrial trans fats because of those partially hydrogenated oils. And those were strongly linked to heart disease. But today, since they were banned, these oils are essentially gone. And that has made all the difference. So since Canada banned that, modern margarines are usually a blend of plant oils like canola, soybean, sunflower, or olive oil, sometimes combined with small amounts of palm or coconut oil, just in order to give them some structure. So they're designed to be spreadable without producing these trans fats. Butter on the other hand is mostly saturated fat from dairy, and we've covered this in other podcasts. Saturated fat isn't nearly as harmful as trans fat. But we know that diets high in saturated fat are still associated with increased LDL cholesterol for many people and linked to a lot of disease processes. There was a 2021 study actually that I came across, Kevin, that compared the nutrition profiles of butter, margarine, and butter blend spreads that are sold. This is a U.S. study. So they are all products sold in the U.S. after the removal of artificial trans fats. So to answer this question, what is the healthfulness of it today? The researchers analyzed more than 80 products, and they found that modern margarines now contain little to no trans fat. It's unavoidable for a little bit of it to convert to trans fat because of the heat and the denaturing in the process. So it's impossible to have zero, but you can't like intentionally produce it. You know what I mean?

Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michelle: So trans fats used to be the main reason why people started avoiding them. They also found that butter was higher in saturated fat, while most margarines, especially the soft or the tub varieties, contain more unsaturated fats and less saturated fat, which aligns better to the current heart health guidelines. However, the study looked only at the nutrient composition of products. They didn't look at the long-term health outcomes in people. So that's one limitation. And like many processed foods, margarine products can vary widely depending upon individual ingredients and formulation. So this study only looked at the fat quality and the fat content, right?

Kevin: OK.

Michelle: Because there could be other things in it, right?

Kevin: Exactly. Pink food dye, for instance.

Michelle: But the practical takeaway is that if someone is choosing between butter and margarine for heart health, then the soft margarines made with vegetable oils do tend to have a more favorable fat profile. OK. But it's still the overall diet that matters most, not the margarine, right?

Kevin: And maybe try to find a margarine that is slightly less processed or has fewer extra ingredients.

Michelle: Exactly. So just a quick note on colorings in modern margarine, because I obviously had to look into that because I'm like, so like what happened to this food dye?

Kevin: Right. Yeah, exactly.

Michelle: Most margarine products sold today do not contain harmful synthetic food dyes. They're usually colored with natural pigments like beta carotene or annatto. Annatto is an orange red condiment derived from some tropical tree. It's just used in the natural food dye industry, so it's not synthetic. So these natural pigments are considered safe. If a consumer wants to be absolutely certain, they should check the ingredient list and look for beta carotene or annatto rather than food dyes like yellow number five.

Kevin: Right. If it's got a number, avoid it.

Michelle: Yeah, if it's got a number, it's not good. So the last quick note on this, since modern margarines are made of plant oils, a lot of people assume that margarine is automatically vegan, but that's not always true. So if you're looking for a vegan brand, then you should check the label because some brands still add dairy ingredients like whey or lactose or milk solids in order to enhance flavor. So there are many modern margarines that are fully plant based, but the only way to be sure is to check the label. So if the label says that it's plant based or vegan, then obviously it's safe. But the bigger takeaway that we talk about a lot on Nutrition for Noobs, Kevin, I'm going to say it again. Focusing too much on a single nutrient can distract us from the bigger picture. So no matter how you slice it, I know you're going to say something like that.

Kevin: Toast, toast, toast, toast.

Michelle: Whenever you add a fat to food, you're adding nine calories per gram that you might not need. So add it sparingly.

Kevin: Right. Use it when you consciously want to do that. But don't just do it sort of automatically out of habit.

Michelle: If that's going to make it an enjoyable food for you, then spread on a little bit. Sure. And if it's an occasional thing. So the strongest evidence for long term health for our listener consistently points to dietary patterns that are built around whole plant foods like beans, whole grains, fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds, and keeping that the main thing. So rather than asking if butter or margarine is healthier, I do think it was a useful question. I'm super glad the question was asked, but just keeping the eye on the prize, the better question would be what does the rest of my plate look like and how much butter or margarine are you using? Exactly. So boom, that's that.

Kevin: Like who knew? Excellent. Mic drop. Well, thank you for this. This has been like super fascinating. All the history and the, and the colour wars and the, the, you know, illegal smuggled and Oh, wow.

Michelle: Yeah.

Kevin: No, it's, it's, it's again, who knew that margarine had such a checkered past.

Michelle: It's crazy. The whole history can be like summed up as it was invented as a cheap butter replacement, and then it was banned to protect butter, and then it was coloured to look like butter, and then it was reformulated when they found that it wasn't actually as healthy as they thought. So it's gone from animal fat to industrial fat and then reformulated into plant oils all in 150 years.

Kevin: Exactly. Interesting. Very interesting.

Michelle: Let me tell you, food is never boring, Kev.

Kevin: Food is? No, it's fascinating. It's totally fascinating.

Michelle: Oh, it is. I have one more question for you.

Kevin: Okay.

Michelle: If margarine had to be pink today instead of yellow, do you think anybody would still buy it?

Kevin: Yes, because with today's focus on food, I think it would be a novelty.

Michelle: They'd think, oh, that's so cool.

Kevin: Because if you look at the colours of some things that are out there, especially candies and things that are neon colours, I think there would be a niche. It might not be your 80-year-old grandparents, but I think there'd be a niche. I think the younger kids might be into the pink spread.

Michelle: I was thinking that too. I wondered what you thought, because it's like, how have our values changed? It used to be that in order for it to be saleable, it had to look exactly like or as close as possible to what butter looks like. But nowadays that things come in weird, wacky packaging and colours, that seems to be valued by consumers.

Kevin: Yeah. Although I do wonder if every single margarine had to be pink, and if every single margarine was pink, then it would lose its novelty. And then I think it would just become natural, like no one would think about it because it's just, that's the colour of margarine. It's like Barbie pink. People would get used to it, you know, people can get used to anything.

Michelle: So, yeah, that's it. That's the surprising drama of margarine.

Kevin: Exactly. The drama and history behind margarine.

Michelle: So thank you, listener.

Kevin: Yeah, thank you, Trina. That was an amazing question. And if any listeners have any questions they want to pose to Michelle, for Michelle to go down a rabbit hole and probably find some weird and wonderful facts, as she tends to do. I'm looking forward to it. Of course. She loves this stuff. Trust me, listeners. She, if you haven't figured that out yet, she loves it. So you can email us at n, the number four, n-o-o-b-s at gmail.com. And of course, you can always connect with us on either Facebook or Instagram at Nutrition for Noobs. And until then, oh, no, not until then. No, it's the joke. Oh, my God. I was about to say my tagline. How, how horrendous would that have been?

Michelle: That would have been horrendous.

Kevin: OK, so are you ready for a joke?

Michelle: I am so ready.

Kevin: OK, how do inmates call each other? Yo, bro. They use cell phones, silly. OK, well, on that note, on that very low note, I will say, don't forget to eat your greens. And be real, eat real food. And not pink margarine or maybe pink margarine, if that's what turns you on. Whatever floats your boat.

Michelle: It's better than it used to be.

Kevin: Whatever spreads your margarine. Oh, my God. It's craziness. This has been Nutrition for Noobs. We hope you're a bit more enlightened about how your fantastic and complicated body works with the food you put into it. If you have a question or a topic you'd like Michelle to discuss, drop us a line at n4noobs at gmail.com. That's the letter N, the number 4, N-O-O-B-S at gmail.com. If you haven't already, you can subscribe to the podcast on whatever your favorite platform might be. Also, please consider leaving a review or telling your friends. That's the best way to spread the word. We'll see you next time with another interesting topic. The views and opinions expressed on Nutrition for Noobs are those of the hosts. It is not intended to be a substitute for medical, nutritional or health advice. Listeners should seek a personal consultation with a qualified practitioner if they have any concerns or before commencing any actions mentioned in the podcast.