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Transcript

Kevin: So, welcome back to Nutrition for Noobs. Michelle, how are you doing?

Michelle: I'm great, Kevin. Do you know what? I have a confession to make. I was in Toronto yesterday, but I didn't call you.

Kevin: Oh my God. Wow. Okay. Episode over. And this has been the episode of Nutrition for Noobs. It's our last episode ever because I'm just not dealing with this woman anymore. How could you do that to me?

Michelle: And second confession, I ate at Planta Queen without you.

Kevin: Oh, wow. Okay. There's two strikes. Do you have a third strike for me?

Michelle: I'm sorry. It was a busy day. I didn't have time and I knew you were, I knew by the time I had time to call you, you would be, have kid duty.

Kevin: I would make time for you. For you, I would make time. And more importantly, maybe for Planta, I would make time.

Michelle: I know. Yeah, right?

Kevin: For you and Planta. For you and Planta. That's a match made in heaven.

Michelle: Seriously. That, that, that food is like from the gods. Seriously.

Kevin: Yes. Okay. Well, we'll try to continue with this episode, but I'll try not to hold it against you. I will try. I will try. No guarantees though.

Michelle: All right. So, well, I have a treat for you today.

Kevin: Oh, good. Okay. This might make up for it.

Michelle: We have a massive rabbit hole and I didn't go down it. I'm going to send my friend down this rabbit hole.

Kevin: Because you were too busy, you were too busy not visiting me in Toronto yesterday.

Michelle: I was busy eating. So do you remember, like, this is back, I think last July, we did episode 46 and a bit of 47 on microplastics.

Kevin: Oh, yes, I do remember those.

Michelle: Yeah. And, and, you know, they're also known as the forever particle.

Kevin: Yep.

Michelle: And they're those, like, tiny plastic fragments that persist in our environment that never really fully degrade. Well, there is another category of concern called the forever chemicals. Okay. And it's related, but different. And I have invited my brilliant friend, Dr. Deborah Kyle, to come and talk to us about this.

Kevin: Amazing.

Michelle: I am so happy that two of my besties are on the Nutrition for News podcast with me at the same time.

Kevin: You're just happy you didn't have to go down the rabbit hole for a change.

Michelle: I like my rabbit holes, but I also am well aware that there are people way smarter than me on many topics. And this is, this is one of them. So I'm going to introduce you to Deb. Say hi to Deb.

Kevin: Great to be here. Good morning. Deb, so nice to meet you.

Michelle: I should use her formal given name, Deborah, Dr. Deborah Kyle.

Kevin: Dr. Deborah E. Kyle. Very nice to meet you.

Dr Deborah Keil: Great to be here and be on the program.

Michelle: I know. And I'm going to make her blush now because I'm going to read, I'm going to read her bio. But I think that her credentials are well deserving. And it also gives some context that, you know, she really, really knows what she's talking about on this and many other topics. So she's an associate professor of microbiology and cell biology at Montana State University. And she's a board certified toxicologist and clinical chemist. Actually, you may remember I've shouted her out a couple of times.

Kevin: You have.

Michelle: On the podcast when we've talked about, you know, something toxicological. Her work focuses on environmental and immunotoxicology, examining how chemicals and contaminants impacts human health and ecosystems. Whoo, Deb. Yes, she has led research on complex exposures ranging from PFAS and heavy metals to asbestos and emerging public health threats. She has also served as the medical laboratory director for several medical labs over the past 20 years. And in addition to her scientific work, she brings a unique perspective through her recent MBA from MIT, as if she wasn't already smart enough.

Kevin: Just a few more letters to add after your name.

Michelle: Bridging science, public health and leadership. Do you know what I find? Like Debra has always been incredibly impressive, but we met, we were like seven or eight years old, I think it was like grade two. We both grew up in the middle of nowhere, southwestern Ontario. And there were, I think, six people in our grade, so when I tell people that, you know, me and this other girl were at the top of our class, it wasn't actually a very big denominator. However, I have to tell you that, aside from being one of the kindest people I know, she really always has been brilliant. And it's because of Debra that I was forced to step up my game as a young person and always try harder and always try to study a little bit more because I was always like, kind of, it was very competitive, but in a really healthy way. So I have Debra to thank for my becoming more curious than I probably otherwise would have been, you know.

Kevin: Debra is responsible for each and every one of your rabbit hole journeys.

Michelle: She created this monster.

Kevin: Yeah, exactly. Thanks, Debra. Wow. I'm now dealing with your legacy. Thanks a lot. Holy cow.

Dr Deborah Keil: I made you jump into this rabbit hole. Likewise, Michelle, you're the one who actually, I would say, drove me to be more ambitious, to be more curious. So I love that. Thank you for that wonderful introduction.

Michelle: You know, Debra introduced me to a lot of things. She was the first person to ever make me aware of the term epigenetics. OK, and I remember I think we were sitting in a little cafe in Las Vegas or something because Debra used to you used to teach at the University of Las Vegas, right?

Dr Deborah Keil: Yes, because Las Vegas has the best sciences.

Michelle: Yeah, yeah.

Kevin: So it's it's where in a cafe in Las Vegas is where I would think most people are introduced to epigenetics.

Michelle: Absolutely. What is it? Does not everyone have this experience? Is this not normal?

Kevin: It's it happened for me, too. That's why I learned about epigenetics at a cafe in Las Vegas.

Michelle: And I remember I remember you looked at me and you had this wild look in your eyes and you were like, have you heard about epigenetics? No, do tell me. So, Debra, you know what? We we wanted to talk about Forever Chemicals today, and maybe you can just start by giving us a bit of background for the noobs that are listening. What what are these chemicals exactly and where do they come from?

Dr Deborah Keil: Yeah, thank you, Michelle. Happy to speak to you about this because it can be rather a complicated topic and especially when you see the term Forever Chemicals and you see the term PFAS, which is PFAS, and then you see some other P words. And so and I mean, PFOA, PFOS, PFXN, and there is a whole alphabet soup of these perfluorinated chemicals. If you were to look them up, you would see these lists of a hundred different ones. And just looking at that list is really mind boggling. So one of the things to keep in mind when we think about PFAS and that family of perfluorinated chemicals, I want to try to share what that structure looks like. That structure of a perfluorinated chemical, if you can imagine a chain and it's a carbon linked to another carbon linked to another carbon and you do that 12 times, you have a 12 carbon chain. And then let's take another element, fluorine, and you cover this chain with fluorine and the fluorine carbon bond is basically your backbone for a perfluorinated chemical. So that's what it looks like visually in chemistry. But I want to mention this structure and this foundation of what this chemical does because it's part of that chemistry that makes it toxic. And it's that carbon in that fluorine bond, which actually are very, very strong. And there's few things, if any, that break it in the environment, in nature, in our body. It sticks around a long time, whether it's in our body or in the environment. It's chemistry. It's that fluorine carbon bond.

Kevin: Darn you, chemistry. Seriously, where does it hang out? At the cafes in Las Vegas.

Dr Deborah Keil: Exactly. Because that's where the real things happen.

Kevin: That's where everything's happening. Yeah, exactly.

Dr Deborah Keil: What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.

Kevin: Stays in Vegas, if only it would.

Dr Deborah Keil: Yes, yes. So that carbon fluorine bond, OK, so now we've got that general structure and hopefully you can kind of visualize this chain. And so when you say where it hangs out, let's maybe start with where our exposure is and then I'll track it to the body. And so our exposure is basically it can be found in water, drinking water. It can be found in food products that are wrapped in anything that prevents fat to absorb through. So if you think pizza box is a great example, a pizza box. So there's a coating at the bottom, if you haven't ever noticed, and you're maybe wondering why that fat from that delicious pizza doesn't actually soak through. It's because of perfluorinated chemicals. If you ever wonder what's in a popcorn bag and why some of that buttery flavor doesn't actually seep through that paper, it's a perfluorinated chemical. So we have a lot of applications. It's great chemistry for some of our food products. Unfortunately, these persistent, what we call persistent chemicals in these applications, once they get into our bodies, they're persistent in our bodies. They don't go through normal transformation. They don't really get broken down in our liver very well. And that's why they circulate in your body and they're around for years.

Michelle: Wow. Can can we jump to what the human health risk is and then kind of come back to some of the sources?

Dr Deborah Keil: So what drives the toxicity and what has driven the concern internationally, globally is is because of this persistence. So if I might just speak to the persistence first and then I'll go to health effects. It's an interesting chemical because I'm going to throw out the term half-life. Half-life means that one of my favorite chemicals, alcohol, has a half-life of three, four or five hours at the most. Right. So I have a drink and in about three, four or five hours, something like that depends on people. It's half. It's a concentration. In another three, four or five hours, it's half again. So we get rid of it well within 24 hours. For fluorinated, a whole different ballgame, and this is what drives the toxicity, is because it's half-life can be three years. Oh, wow. When I first started studying this chemical and it was in the early 2000s, we actually thought the half-life was like six or seven years. Regardless, we're looking at years. That means every little bit that we get from our environment, from our foods, from our water, can just contribute a little bit more. And over time, because we don't eliminate it, it becomes a bigger issue. So that's what drives the toxicity. That's what drives the concern. Right. I want to also put it in an interesting perspective for other chemicals. I don't go home thinking, I'm never going to have a pizza or if I'm going to have popcorn, oh yeah, I can have popcorn. But there's some other ways we can put that into perspective, because it's always, you know, we all hear the term dose is the poison, right? So if we're at the low levels, you know, and we can kind of keep our exposure kind of minimal, then that's a plus. That's what we can do as a consumer, kind of make sure that we're drinking water that is free from this, you know, checking our water. We can always look at information that's provided from our local water sources. They should be testing for these chemicals to make sure that we're below some of these thresholds of toxicity. And then we can also, as let's say you have in Canada, Michelle, where we grew up, we didn't have municipal water. We had well water, right? And so one of the things that we need to keep in mind is testing that well water. And there's still a lot of people that have well water, especially in agricultural areas, rural areas. And so at least for the state of Montana, I don't know what it's like in Ontario right now, but we have well programs where you can, for a minimal amount of money, we can test, you know, your water to make sure it's a really good quality. So minimizing your exposure is really critical to keeping these chemicals kind of in that lower, lower threshold.

Kevin: So, Deborah, I just want some clarity. So you're talking about, for example, the pizza boxes and the popcorn bags that have this thin coating of the PFAS chemical on it. Does the PFAS actually get into your body through direct contact? Like, does some of those chemicals leach into the bottom of the pizza crust or into the popcorn, or is it, it leaches into the water after you throw those away in a dump site and then it rains and then the rainwater mixes with these chemicals? Like, is it a direct contact or is it after the fact or a combination of both? I'm just a little confused with that.

Dr Deborah Keil: Oh, great question. Direct contact absorbing into the food.

Kevin: OK, OK. So so those chemicals will actually, the coating that's touching the pizza crust will actually kind of ooze into the pizza a little bit. Yeah. OK.

Michelle: I'm aware that from my own research that almost everyone has PFAS in their blood. How freaked out should people be about this? Like the average person living, you know, not in a near a chemical plant or anything like that, just the average person in a rural or a city environment.

Dr Deborah Keil: Yeah. So in my perspective, you shouldn't be that freaked out. OK. And I'm going to tell you a couple of reasons why. Now, if you're not in like the Ohio Valley, for instance, where it is frequently found in that water, it was dumped in that water. And that's a well established case. And you are exposed to really high levels. Yes, you need to be really concerned. But if you're drinking water that's been tested, if you are, you know, into your to your podcast, eating a solid, healthy diet with a lot of antioxidants, you're going to be OK. I mean, I if I were just the typical consumer, me, this is what I would do. I would probably if I had cookware that was maybe a nonstick coating that where it was compromised and scraped and stuff like that, I began to change out my my cookware, for instance. That would be my my action to this type of exposure. I would make sure my water is good. That's your primary route for exposure to these chemicals. So I make sure that that was in that was OK. Eating more fresh foods rather than packaged foods would be another action point. But I wouldn't I wouldn't get stressed out because I'm doing toxicology for 30 years. I can name a bunch of other things I'd be freaked out about.

Michelle: She knows things, Kevin.

Kevin: I have another basic question because this is fascinating to me. So sorry if I'm, you know, just taking you down a different rabbit hole than you want to go. But as a consumer, like how can you tell kind of the the safe packaging versus not? Because I'm thinking like I get vegetables and my store often wraps them in cellophane, like saran wrap, basically, versus a pizza box. Like, is is there a quality to the material? Is it that kind of vaguely slippery texture on the inside of a of a pizza box or a a popcorn bag or like how can you tell what packaging is safe?

Dr Deborah Keil: I'm not sure you can tell it. So. Oh, OK. Oh, no. OK.

Kevin: That's not the answer I wanted.

Dr Deborah Keil: So I would say the most it's frequent use has been on anything that's like a paper to prevent going through. And so if you were to think in just that capacity, you know what what you're choosing to eat, that might be one of the things that would capture most of it, probably sort of that plasticized paper.

Michelle: Pretty much every takeout container ever then, because that's that's how they're made.

Dr Deborah Keil: Because of our awareness of these perfluorinated chemicals that are in, you know, some of our cookware and I don't I want to speak to cookware, you can actually look at pots, pans and even, you know, baking items and you can actually see on the label. It's like, hey, no forever chemicals or no PFOS or PFOA or some of those. You can actually see that on the label. And that's actually a good choice. So to your point about, you know, what we would do as a consumer, that would be one really. If you can if you can make that change, that's that's a great thing. So every little piece of this puzzle, if you can reduce it a little bit, then in general, that's going to be a great, a great option. I do want to say, though, that there are efforts for manufacturers to reduce some of these chemicals in their products.

Michelle: I want to ask you about that.

Dr Deborah Keil: Yeah, go ahead. There has been some really good efforts to reduce these chemicals, and that's very responsible for our manufacturers and food producers and so forth. So fantastic. We're making steps in a very good direction. And the awareness is out there. This is one of the few chemicals that like I was one of the first to study it in the early 2000s. And now we're making some progress within 20 years to help reduce it in our public health system.

Michelle: In public health, that's actually amazing. That's like the speed of light in public health.

Dr Deborah Keil: Thank you, Michelle. I'm glad you get that because, you know, I was kind of frustrated. I was like, why? Why are people seeing our research? But when I think about some of the other, you know, chemicals that I've looked at over my tenure in toxicology, I'm like, oh, wow, those just haven't gained traction.

Michelle: They're not sexy enough.

Kevin: It's all branding. There's something about the phrase forever chemical that that instantly tells you, oh, that's not good. Like, I don't think I want a chemical around forever. Whereas if you just have, you know, CFCs back when we were kids, like CFC means kind of nothing. And oh, you know, whereas a forever chemical is a is a very meaningful phrase.

Michelle: Unless it was prolonging your youth or something like.

Kevin: Well, that's true. That's true. But I think it's usually said in a longevity particle, then they would be paying attention. But not in a good way. This is the longevity particle we don't want.

Michelle: You know, I'm glad you mentioned about the yeah, the good news about the change that is occurring at the level of manufacturing and to reduce exposures by choosing better ways of making these products that we certainly want for our convenience foods and whatnot. So since you've been involved in the research since the early 2000s, at its peak, I might say, of of our exposures, have you seen any change? Have you had the opportunity to look at research or be involved in research that measures how much it's gotten better in that period?

Dr Deborah Keil: I don't know that answer directly, but this is what I can add to that. Because of the branding, because of forever chemicals, one of the things that we do know is that it's not gone away in our environment. It's not gone away from all of our water sources. So even though we're making these proactive steps to reduce it in the cookware, in the food products, et cetera, we still have a substantial amount in our environment, in the water that we still need to be concerned about, that we still need to measure. And if you're in an area where, you know, it's high in the water. And so I want to if we're going to be concerned about anything on the perfluorinated, think about water inside your body. Your body is designed to absorb. Your gut is designed to absorb. And so, you know, that is your most direct route. So making sure that you drink really good water is imperative. And, you know, and this is one of the many things that you should think about when you think about water quality.

Michelle: I'm so on the same page on that with you, Deb. I think our very first episode of Nutrition for Noobs was about water because that is my concern. A majority of people are not appropriately hydrated. And it really concerns me in making that first recommendation, like first and foremost, make sure you're drinking enough water. It's like, but be choosy and make sure that you're drinking the best quality water within your means. Right. Because it doesn't like are we going to be detracting all of our other efforts if we do everything else right? But we're we're exposing ourself to all of these chemicals and other chemicals in the water that we're drinking because, you know, we just trusted what came out of the tap without actually really knowing what we're putting in our body. Right.

Kevin: So, Deborah, if someone lives in an area, in a community that doesn't adequately filter out these chemicals from their drinking water, or if they're on a well and they're unlucky enough to have a high concentration of these, will like over-the-counter filtration systems do an adequate job of filtering it out? Or do you need something more heavy duty if people are in a place where this is an issue?

Dr Deborah Keil: Yeah, you need more of a robust filtering. Really, okay. And unfortunately, those are quite expensive. They're in the thousands of dollars typically for reverse osmosis as part of the filtering process. That is your best option for getting rid of some of these forever chemicals. And unfortunately, it's very expensive.

Michelle: How much exposure do we get through our skin, Debra?

Dr Deborah Keil: Not very much. Ingestion is the primary route of exposure. If you work in an occupation, let's say it's carpet manufacturing or something where these perfluorinated chemicals are used, then you can actually inhale it. And then it could be a substantially key route of exposure for those in particular occupations.

Michelle: Debra, is there a blood test for this? And even if there is, is it even reasonable for the average person to be concerned enough to ask for it? Or what do you think about that whole subject?

Dr Deborah Keil: No, so that's great. That's right up my alley. So because I'm a medical lab director for different labs, and also I have like great students that we're actually in this topic right now. We're talking about perfluorinated chemicals all week with my toxicology class, and they're fantastic students. But one of the things that is really important is understanding if you find something in your blood, that doesn't mean it has caused a problem for you. So you can, especially with perfluorinated, it is, you remember I told you it has this really long chain. It has these fluorine compounds around it, really tough chemistry to break down. It's persistent in your body, and it's always circulating. It's always, you know, what we would call bioavailable potentially. When we measure it, when we take that snapshot of blood and we measure it, we just know that's what your level is today. It doesn't mean you have cancer. It doesn't mean you have a compromised immune system. It means that you were previously exposed, and we don't know how long ago you were exposed. So it's more of a biomonitoring tool rather than the diagnostic tool that says you have this disease. It's not that. Now you asked me earlier what are the consequences for having these types of exposures, and these are the consequences that we've identified and published on as scientists. Early on, I was working with my colleagues, and we identified that it suppressed immune function. And so if I were to just like start here with immunology, so here's the simple way to look at it. We have a B cell. B cell makes an antibody, and a body protects us from viruses and bacteria. And so that B cell just doesn't work really well. So let's say I give you a measles vaccine, a diphtheria vaccine, a tetanus vaccine, because those are the three kind of big ones that we see this effect in. Your B cell is triggered to make protection, and protection to help you through your life. But if you're exposed to some of these chemicals, these PFASs, that suppression happens. That B cell is just not working as well as it should be, and you're not protected like you should be. So that's one of its first things that we identify with the perfluorinated chemicals. And then we learned a little bit more, and the little bit more is that we were concerned about does it cross into the placenta, and does it get into the fetus, the developing fetus? It does. It's small enough. It can cross. So now we know fetal development's vulnerable at so many different stages that, you know, as scientists, we're asking, oh my goodness, now that we know it's present, what are its effects? And so, you know, so with some different mouse studies and some work that I did with my colleagues early on, we were able to see that there were some changes in the main function that seemed to be persistent. Did it mean, you know, that they were compromised for their entire life? We're still unraveling that, you know, to find out what those impacts are. So that's a concern. So circling back to your question about, you know, what can we do as a consumer? So in general, women that are pregnant always need to be really careful about what they're consuming. Nutrition is absolutely key to your podcast. Nutrition is absolutely key during that stage, making sure that, you know, we can't eliminate everything, but maybe we can, you know, maybe change out a few pots and pans or something. Maybe we can make sure our water's good. And then we can eat really good foods, whole foods. Yes. Which is something that over the years you've talked about, Michelle, is making sure that we really have foods that are high in antioxidants. And if I may make a plug for nutrition.

Kevin: Please. Absolutely not. What do you think this is, a nutrition podcast? No.

Michelle: Kevin, you're dead to me now, Kevin.

Dr Deborah Keil: One of the things that I have seen over and over again in my experiments with various chemicals is that when you hit a cell, I'm just going to think, just think one cell, one simple cell, but they're not so simple. They're pretty complex and they're pretty cool. You take one cell, you hit it with a chemical. It's like, you know what? We've got, we've got things to fight this chemical. We have antioxidants. We have things like glutathione. We have things in the cell membrane to prevent lipid peroxidation. That's a fancy word for saying, we're not going to hit the fats and compromise them in the cell because the cells have fats. They have, sometimes we call them phospholipids, but they're just basically fats. They protect you. It's like, think of your skin. And then we have, you know, proteins and we have a lot of different carbohydrates. We don't want to change their structure. We don't want to shoot holes in them. And that's what chemicals do, if I were to simplify it. And those antioxidants, and they shoot holes by charges, pluses, minuses, charges. And so if we can have an antioxidant that scavenges them, that collects and stops some of that attack on a cell or prevents the cell from being hijacked from a chemical, that's absolutely key.

Michelle: Nutrition is our best defense.

Kevin: Go antioxidants!

Dr Deborah Keil: Absolutely is. I can, every, I would just say every chemical I've looked at, they might have this mechanism causing a problem, but you know what? It also causes oxidative damage, which antioxidants are great at protecting.

Michelle: Just a question though, when you mentioned the risk to a developing fetus and the pregnant mother, et cetera, like keeping that in mind and then looking at the broad population, what other segments of the population are most at risk? Like would children in particular, just because they're in tinier bodies, would they be at more risk of consequences of exposures than to a full-grown adult? Or does that make a difference?

Dr Deborah Keil: It does make a difference. So children are in the toxicology world, we would consider vulnerable populations. Another vulnerable population might be those that are immunocompromised for other reasons and layer on an exposure. You might have another vulnerable population that might be the elderly, and then you layer on an exposure. And in the real world, we have multiple exposures. So you always want to be aware of their status in terms of how they can metabolize, address some of these chemical insults.

Kevin: Well, that's a good thing because it's well known that kids absolutely despise pizza and popcorn. So no problem there. Kids are safe.

Dr Deborah Keil: Yeah. When you think about humans and all the different things that hit us from all different directions, if we can make one or two or three adjustments, whether it's water, cooking pans, or things like that, yeah, let's do that. Let's make that happen.

Kevin: It's interesting. I was just looking online just because I was curious about my water here, like my city water, because I don't have any fancy filtration systems. I've always trusted city water. I live in a big city, so that's fine. And apparently, we're about a third, our levels are about a third of the maximum recommended, blah, blah, blah. But I did find an interesting map. And if we're interested, I can throw a link in the show notes that actually lists every single troublesome area for groundwater in Canada. And it seems I haven't had a great look at it. There are a few trouble spots, but it seems to be mostly around old landfills or old industrial areas. But it has the pinpoint of the epicenter of the problem, and then it has an outer ring about roughly what population might be within the so-called danger zone and how many wells might be affected. Michelle, you're safe. The only place anywhere near London is there's two tiny little pinpoints right on either side of your airport.

Michelle: Oh, yeah, those are where the dump sites are, I think.

Kevin: Yeah, yeah, they used to be dump sites. And there's one pond you shouldn't go fishing in, that's right beside the airport. I personally would never go fishing in a pond near an airport for other reasons. So you're fine. But it was just an interesting map to show all the areas. And it has a little bit of a story behind it, highlighting some of the areas and some examples of the areas. It just was very interesting, I found.

Michelle: Does it mention PFAS on the map?

Kevin: It does, yes. No, it's actually specifically a PFAS map.

Michelle: Oh, that's cool. You should put that in the show notes, Kevin. And for any of the listeners that are in the United States, Environmental Working Group has a water directory that you can click on and it tells you what the water quality testing is in just about every area of the United States, continental United States anyway.

Kevin: Yeah, I'm sure you can Google it. And this is from the CBC, so it's a legitimate source, I think. And it's from 2025, so it's quite recent.

Michelle: What say you, Dr. Debra? Where should we be looking for these resources?

Dr Deborah Keil: I don't know about the resources, but if I might circle... Well, I do have some ideas on resources, but if I might circle back to... Kevin, thank you for reminding me. Besides water, the other really important route of exposure is fish, local fish. So to your point, eating fish in local ponds that might be close to this, or even smaller lakes that are close to some of these sites. We have concerns about some of the fish actually having bioaccumulated some of these PFAS or forever chemicals.

Kevin: Oh, okay. And then of course then, yeah, when you eat the fish, all of those accumulated PFAS go into you. Makes sense. So Debra, you mentioned some resources that you might have ideas for?

Dr Deborah Keil: Well, I can speak more to the resources here in the States. I think some of these maps like EWG, Environmental Working Group, is helpful. CDC is helpful. One of the things that we do here, and I'm not sure it's done in Canada, is that we have something called the NHANES study, N-H-A-N-E-S. And what we do is every so many years, CDC will measure what they take a blood sample from the general population, and they look for some of these persistent chemicals, which include the forever PFAS chemicals. And so we have a sense of what our baseline exposure is. Oh, interesting. To your point, Michelle, yeah, we all have a little bit in us because we live in such a dynamic and complex environment. So, and it's just a matter of, you know, where is it that it might be higher? Where's a hot spot? Was this chemical perhaps dumped into a river? You know, do we need to be concerned about that population locally? You know, and that's where the alarms should go off. That's where we should really be involved in protecting their public health. Their health in general.

Michelle: And just so I'm clear, if you are subjected to a higher than acceptable level of exposure, the average person isn't even going to know that, right? Like, it's not like they're going to get a rash or a physical symptom. You've kind of, what you've described is that it's going to happen at the immune system level. We're going to be, our immune system is going to be underperforming in some way, is that right?

Dr Deborah Keil: Yes, that's a possibility, is that, that's a great way to say it, underperforming in some way. Maybe the B cells are just not as good as they should be in terms of generating the antibodies that they use to protect us. That's a great segue into what I haven't covered yet, is that these chemicals, you asked about where they accumulate in the body, and one of the ways, one of the things that they can attach to is various items in the liver and in the kidney. So I was listening to your microplastics and one of the things that you mentioned, you said that they, the microplastics are binding to a fat constituent, a fat chemical in the liver. Yeah, that is an opportunity for some of the perforatitis to accumulate there, and they also bind to some cholesterol type compounds. So there's perhaps some data that, there is some data showing where it can interfere and cause maybe some liver damage or it can modify some of our lipid biochemistry, cholesterol, hypercholesterolemia. So there are some links there. Now, I want to say, although we see it in the publications, always have to ask the question, how much? You know, because when we do our experiments, we do a range from low to high, and we need to understand what that means in terms of how much water we're exposed to, how much local fish we're exposed to, and what is that dose, and is it truly relevant? Right, makes sense. One of the things that I've taken away from doing a lot of toxicology work, and especially immunotoxicology, is I want to just say, your bodies are pretty marvelous. Our bodies are marvelous in terms of having what we call redundancies. Redundancies in terms of protecting ourselves. You know, we fix our tissues. Think of yourself as a marathon runner. You know, we're pushing our bodies in a marathon run, but we can get, we fix our bodies right after that marathon run. And that's true for a lot of the different chemical insults we're exposed to. We do, our bodies, our liver, our, you know, other different mechanisms, our glutathione to protect ourselves, our antioxidants that we have inherently within ourselves, they protect us. You know, so again, I want to just, you know, circle back to really good nutrition because we are feeding ourselves to protect us from the various chemical insults that we have day to day.

Kevin: I love that phrase, chemical insults. It's like a little chemical walking up to you like, I don't like you.

Michelle: I'm rubber and you're glue.

Kevin: Your liver wears army boots.

Michelle: I love the influence that you have on, like as a medical, in your medical laboratory work, the influence that you have on care professionals and to be able to like, just being part of that world and, and sharing your knowledge and interacting with them that you get to share this knowledge with them because it's, it's a shame that they're, and I know that things are changing in a very positive direction, particularly in the last 10 years that there's a lot of voices speaking out about the role of nutrition is not only preventative medicine, but also in part of disease management and as like nutritional interventions and nutritional therapies, like the word is getting out there, but we still have a long way to go. As you pointed out, we are these incredible, resilient machines that were designed for survival. We can put ourselves through a tremendous amount of abuse when you think about it before we feel a consequence.

Kevin: We can take the chemical insults, all the chemical insults they can throw at us.

Dr Deborah Keil: Yeah, it's all about balance.

Michelle: Yeah, no, I'm just so grateful for you, for people like you and the brilliant mind that you have bringing to this space to help the rest of us fumble through the universe. Just to take us to the next level. What is that are you aware of that's new and cool and sexy in this area of scientific research that you're excited about or where you see real bright lights in the future of, you know, governments getting in front of this problem in a really meaningful way?

Dr Deborah Keil: I think this is one of the few examples that I've seen in my lifetime where there have been, it's been such a concerted effort with many scientists, you know, that continue this work and continue this public health effort. I know some of my colleagues are amazing. They've spent, you know, they continue to do more of this work than, and I went on to different other chemicals, and they have just dedicated their lives to making sure that this message gets out. That we are actually kind of, you know, looking under every rock to make sure that we know as much as we can about this chemical because it's so persistent. And it's so different than anything else that, you know, we've looked at. So, and what I really appreciate is that, to your point, you know, we were talking about 20 years being a fast public health reaction. And to the point of branding Forever Chemicals and making the awareness. I think most of my students now understand the word Forever Chemicals when they come into my classroom. And so we have a point of awareness that, you know, happened with this chemical that we don't always with others. And we have some changes in policies in terms of what's going to be on our cookware. We have some changes in policy, what's going to be wrapping around our food. We have some changes in awareness of, you know, measurements in, to your point, Kevin, ponds, you know, that are around, you know, the airport or other sources. And, you know, so all of these little pieces, you know, help create, you know, these pieces of this puzzle help create, you know, a better, healthier community, communities, you know, whether it's local and also globally. So I think that is the biggest message and most rewarding message to see in this progression of knowing about PFAS.

Michelle: Wow, mic drop right there.

Kevin: Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you, Debra. This has been really, really fascinating. And you've brought a lot of information, but also, you know, and I don't want this to sound corny, but you've also brought a lot of hope because I was actually coming into this conversation thinking, oh my God, is this something else I need to worry about? And I like that you're very down to earth. And it's like, yeah, there's a few things you can do. And otherwise, I don't sweat it all that much, unless you are in certain categories or unless you, you know, eat off really, really old, crappy nonstick pans. You're eating all that Teflon with your scrambled eggs, throw out the pan, buy a ceramic one. But you've brought a lot of amazing information. So thank you. This has been really fascinating.

Michelle: You're very welcome. Debra, you're brilliant as always. And we're going to have to get you back again to talk about another topic.

Kevin: Exactly. Another conversation to have in a cafe in Las Vegas. And as usual, we have a few dad jokes at the end of our episodes. So are you ready?

Michelle: Yes, I'm ready.

Kevin: Drum roll. First one Michelle might like. It's sort of walks into a bar adjacent.

Dr Deborah Keil: Yes.

Kevin: A jumper cable walks into a diner. The waitress says, I'll serve you. Just don't start anything.

Michelle: I like that one.

Kevin: It's I thought you might like that one. And the second one. What did the ocean say to the beach?

Michelle: Don't know. What did the ocean say to the beach, Kevin?

Kevin: Nothing. It just waved. And on that note. On that note. Thank you so much, Debra, for joining us. And thank you as always, Michelle. And if you have any questions or any comments or feedback, you can get in touch with us at email and the number for NOOBS at gmail.com or hit us up on Facebook or Instagram at Nutrition for Noobs. And until then, I will say, eat your greens.

Michelle: And I always say, be real, everyone. Debra, do you have a tagline?

Kevin: I don't. Don't let the chemicals insult you. That should be yours.

Dr Deborah Keil: That's right.

Kevin: There we go. You can put it in your email signature tagline. Down with chemical insults. This has been Nutrition for Noobs. We hope you're a bit more enlightened about how your fantastic and complicated body works with the food you put into it. If you have a question or a topic you'd like Michelle to discuss, drop us a line at N4noobs at gmail.com. That's the letter N, the number 4, N-O-O-B-S at gmail.com. If you haven't already, you can subscribe to the podcast on whatever your favourite platform might be. Also, please consider leaving a review or telling your friends. That's the best way to spread the word. We'll see you next time with another interesting topic. The views and opinions expressed on Nutrition for Noobs are those of the hosts. It is not intended to be a substitute for medical, nutritional or health advice. Listeners should seek a personal consultation with a qualified practitioner if they have any concerns or before commencing any actions mentioned in the podcast.